Reports from Beta Central - how do you beta?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Looks like we're all ready to go - we have a story that will be volunteered tomorrow all ready for beta-ing comments and feedback, and we have stories lined up for after that too. Thank you everyone!

In the meantime, and before we start, a couple of people suggested we have a post about the different ways of betaing, particularly what different people look out for when they're reading a story with an eye to seeing how well it works.

So - what do you comment on, when you're betaing a story? Or what do you notice as "a mistake", and/or what do you find "forgivable"? What do you look for in a fic? What are your strengths, d'you think, as a beta? And perhaps the ultimate question - what would you find in your idea of the perfect Prosfic?

What d'you reckon? *g*

ETA - and perhaps we should turn this the other way around too - what are authors looking for in their beta...? What is a "beta" anyway? What are we/they supposed to be doing? *g*

Comments

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for putting this together and getting it started!

I’m going to answer the last question, first. My ultimate Prosfic will have the boys in a CI5 situation with a proper plot, but nothing too heavy (after all the episodes were not that deep!). Underpinning, but also surrounding this will be their relationship and how they interact with lots of banter/dialogue some of which should make me smile. The characterisation needs to be spot-on and definitely no American spellings or –isms. I like to have their relationship very close (or building up to being close). Definitely no girlfriends for them except on the periphery, but their relationship does not necessarily have to be a sexual one. There must be a happy ending – even if it is eventually after a long and tortuous route!

Having said that, I have read a wide range of Prosfic including AUs and loved most of them. I tend to gravitate to particular authors because I like their style of writing and therefore will enjoy the story because of that.

OK – I’m only a reader and very new to beta-ing, but I have helped out three authors. One is a very keen and prolific writer, one asked only for a Big Bang Story beta and one writes mainly for herself. They are all quite different in their styles and what and how they write.

So:

My first aim is to get used to the style of the author’s writing and not impose my own needs (see above!) I do this by either the initial contact through e-mail, reading their work on their own journal pages or where ever, or simply asking. I am adamant that the story is theirs and that any comments and/or suggestions I make are there to challenge them rather than an expectation that they make the changes I may have suggested.

I will spell-check, do my best with grammar and sentence construction. Point out Americanisms and American spelling errors, pick up any anomalies, and generally give a feel for how the story reads.

Generally, I read the story and comment as I go. I always try to be positive and say why I’ve commented as I have - often making a suggestion for an alternative word or phrase. I always explain why I’ve challenged something – often researching the particular item or issue if I’m not sure myself. I’m not sure I “forgive” anything ... I can be very pedantic, but feel that if I let anything through where I’m not 100% happy with it, I’m undermining the confidence of the author in my worth as a beta.

I think my strengths are proof-reading generally, spelling, Brit-check (I’m British born and bred and was a teenager/twenty-something during the 70s and 80s) and positive suggestions and feedback.

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I can attest to what she says. *nods*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

My first aim is to get used to the style of the author’s writing and not impose my own needs (see above!) I do this by either the initial contact through e-mail, reading their work on their own journal pages or where ever, or simply asking. I am adamant that the story is theirs and that any comments and/or suggestions I make are there to challenge them rather than an expectation that they make the changes I may have suggested.

I think this is a good point and a good strategy to follow and it helps to address something which has always troubled me and that is, how should - or does - a beta deal with a story which is faultless – technically/grammatically correct etc. - but which contains things they dislike or which they can’t see their characters doing? [And I don’t think it’s *just* about characterisations being way off because I’ve got favourite stories where Bodie and Doyle are barely recognizable as such but I still love those stories.] But I think you’ve answered my question which is that the beta – as much as the writer – has to deploy a certain amount of empathy (which, I think, is a shade more than not being subjective) and don the writer’s skin, temporarily.

Thanks for giving me food for thought!

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

I've never done a beta. I have given just a general overall reaction to a story and made some minor suggestions. As a writer I'd like my beta to be totally honest. I'm not a professional (*g* - pun intended)so I have no illusions about the quality of my writing. I want a beta to point out what worked and what didn't, did I "get" the characters or not, does the story drag in places? I'd like suggestions on how the story could be improved (and I know that they can be!), offering up a different take on how the story flowed (or didn't) or how issues might be resolved differently... I'm not asking for much, am I? *g* So pretty uch anything goes for me - but I hope there will be some positive feedback too!

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I've betaed several times for grammar, although not for Pros; I would never get the Brit Speak and I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of any fandom to to a really good canon beta.

Usually I'm looking for the following:

• basic spelling / grammar - readers have to be able to make sense of the story, and this is something easily checked. However, I also keep in mind that author grammar errors are not the same as character grammar errors; if the character is supposed to speak like that, so be it.
• story flow - the 'music" of the story. I'm mainly looking for consistency here. I might mention if the music doesn't work with the story being told, but that's a very gray line.
• logic - references should make sense, and should match throughout the story. Example: I betaed a story in which a character fell 60-70 feet into water. It *is* possible to survive that w/o major injury, as the character did (character actually had no injuries), but his rescuers didn't even check for injuries. Stuff like that.

My main guiding principle is that in the end it's the writer's story. They have to decide what they're doing, and what they'd like to change. So I try to clearly state what I marked and why, and give suggestions rather than tell the author what changes should be made for non-binary items.

I also think that writers should work with several betas, who concentrate on specific areas (canon, grammar), because the process is so subjective.

And I'm okay with people breaking rules - but they should know what the rules are and make sure breaking them really is in service of the story.

One thing I insist on: enough time to thoroughly read the story multiple times (about five) to make sure I'm picking up what it is the author is writing. I also think that the beta process should be done as iterations, and that the writer should work with several people who specialize in areas (canon, grammar). After all, it's the impression the story makes that's being checked.

As a writer I hope for a few things that a beta may or may not provide: the basic spelling / grammar / characterization checks, but also if a story makes sense. Characterization, for example, is a weakness, and I need to figure out how to have a conversation to work through what it is I'm not getting. Some of that, however, might be a bit beyond a straight beta.

I've probably contradicted myself somewhere in there, too...

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

No story is ever perfect, even the stories I adore from my favourite writers. I don't look for perfection; I look for a story that grabs me and that I HAVE to read.

My strongest suit is my ability to keep any story in its proper POV. I can beta for grammar and punctuation, and if the story is understandable. My weakness is strong sentence structure, which I'm working on. I'm not British so I can't Brit pick.

A beta to me is an editor who goes through the story with a fine tooth comb and picks it to death about everything. I ask for the full monty on my own stories and generally, they come back looking like some serial killer has taken a knife to them there's so much red!

However, I have read for people asking for an idea of how the story is working or if it makes sense and not for anything else. I will do what the writer requests even if she doesn't want suggestions on what I think the story might need. It's not my story, after all and my opinion is free. :) I always ask first what the writer wants or needs or expects.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I'm not a native english speaker, which can be somewhat of a pro as a reader, as things like non-brit spelling or americanism don't tend to bother me too much (I've learned quite a bit by now! *g*), if the characters generally sound like themselves.
What tends to throw me out of a story is characterization, more than anything, especially when it's clear that the author vastly prefers one of the characters or much repeated fanon, that has grown from one little thing in canon and become the ultimate truth.

I'm also not a beta reader, but am rather good at spotting (American) spelling mistakes, awkward sentence structure, tense and POV changes, repetitive word usage. Characterization is very subjective, so I always wonder how a beta reader approaches this, when something strikes them as completely off target. Do writers and beta readers usually match up if they see eye-to-eye on this, or more the opposite?

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I've only betaed a few times, but I looked for the same things I'd want pointed out to me: grammar, spelling, plot holes, the flow of the story, scenes that shouldn't be there, or scenes that need to be added. As far as characterization, the author would have to ask for that, since we don't all see the characters the exact same way.

The perfect Prosfic would have Bodie and Doyle acting at least close to how I see them. And while I can overload a missed punctuation or an error in spelling from time to time, too many of them will knock me right out of the story. The setting doesn't matter; I've loved AUs just as much as series-based stories. But I think it's mostly that I know it when I see it. *g*

[margaret-r.livejournal.com]

The things I usually look for when I’m doing a beta are the flow of the story, any inconsistencies, any factual errors and any typos or grammatical errors that I can pick up – although I always stipulate that grammar and punctuation are not my strong points! I’ll make suggestions where I think something could be changed for the better or point out where something isn’t quite working – whether it’s a storyline or characterisation. Being a beta and a writer I have to be very careful that my suggestions are subjective and not made because it’s the way I would have written it! Equally a beta has to be prepared to step aside from their own likes and dislikes – not let the fact they might not be keen on, for example, science fiction, affect the way they would beta an AU Pros science fiction story. It’s always better to decline to beta if you don’t like the genre or the style of writing and think it will affect what you have to say. And, I don’t get upset if a writer doesn’t agree with what I’ve suggested – it’s their work and my suggestions are exactly that … suggestions only:)

The things I want from anyone beta’ing my story are much the same. I want an honest opinion on whether what I have written works and constructive suggestions on how I can fix it if it doesn’t. The same with inconsistencies and errors. I might not always agree with what a beta has suggested but always take on board whatever they have to say.

I don’t think I have any ‘ideal’ vision of Prosfic, mainly I like the ‘voices’ to be right, for the characters to sound and act like Bodie, Doyle, Murphy, Cowley and the rest and for it to be believable, even when its AU.

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

The people who have commented so far have said it all! I have done a lot of beta work, including some for 'professional' (as opposed to Professionals!!) writers and have done editing for publication. I think all the points have been covered - language, including grammar, consistency, voice, Brit-picking; plot, including logic, plot-holes, flow and beginning/ending at the 'right' moment; characterisation, including voice (again), description, etc.

I think a good beta is also responsible for picking up as many typos as possible though the typo gremlins will inevitably add more at the amendment stage.

It's perfectly possible to beta a story/style that doesn't appeal to you personally provided the underlying structure etc. is at least admirable.

It isn't necessary to be good at all aspects of beta work. Someone who is flaky on explaining grammar might be briliant at spotting continuity problems. Most work benfits from having more than one beta.

In the end, it's the author's decisions that are final and the beta(s) should always bear that in mind, but authors would do well to take note of basic spelling corrections and so on!

Any beta situation is one in which the beta has been invited to comment, and should be courteous, and the author has invited them and should accept comments gracefully. The article kiwisue directed us to made quite a lot of good points but I did think that in some of the cases it quoted maybe nobody should have got involved in beta work in the first place.

A beta is not a critic. That should go without saying. There's a fine line but it exists!

Here, at least we all like the lads - so the underlying purpose of the story will appeal. And Pros seems to attract inherently polite and pleasant fans so that should be OK too.

I have every intention of using you lot to beta my story (which is still in my head at the moment) for the latest dialj challenge - be warned! *g*

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

I've worked with several awesome betas so far. I'm grateful for all their help and I've learned a lot. :D

Of course, I won't be betaing for this fandom since I am not British.

One thing that surprises me here is that people seem to think it's OK to have more than one beta per story. I have tried to avoid that because if their advice disagreed I would feel quite confused and also worried about hurting someone's feelings if I followed the other lady's beta remarks. The last thing I want to do is try to balance betas. It's hard enough writing in a non-native fandom where I have lots to learn without drama/tension/conflict.

My mom always says new parents should get ONE baby book and follow it...not several or they will feel hopelessly confused and nervous. I figured betas were like baby books in that way. :)

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I like being compared with a baby book! You'll know why!
:)

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

;)

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

This is soo great!! *totally enthusiastic*
As an RO (Reader Only), I like very much what´s being said for betaing, and I do agree about the spelling and the typos, I don´t know nuffing about britcheck and things, but it´s real fun to find all these british thingys that always went by me but got so damn important with the lads.
Betas are VIP´s indeed!
And the thing about more than one totally makes sense!

I like the lads snarky and rough and bantering! God, I adore the banter.
And I adore writers who are able to explain things without explaining them. I mean, well, we talked about that in the reading room last year, and BySlantedlight put it in words:
Show, not telling? That's what it sounds to me like you're describing, and it's what I reckon the best writers do! They don't tell us "Bodie was enjoying being away from London on holiday, and he was feeling happy as he bounded up into the caravan", they show us what Bodie's feeling and how he's thinking: "Against every natural instinct years of city life had seeped into him, Bodie breathed in a lungful of bracing sea air. And another. He was whistling as he mounted the three steps to the caravan’s door." *g* Callisto doesn't tell us that Doyle was cranky because he was worried because he'd been injured and felt insecure about his recovery, and... she shows us all that in what he does, in the way that Bodie sees him. Similarly she doesn't tell us anywhere at all that Bodie was angry with Doyle for spoiling his mood - but we can see that he was, through what he did! That's writing, and that's what I'm always looking for... Hmmn, perhaps because it's more realistic - people don't come up to us and say "right, I'm angry with you, let me explain why", that's not human nature - we tend to express our anger in other ways (any one of a thousand ways, depending on who we are!) and so people see it, and then adjust their behaviour to deal with it, to calm us down, or stoke the flames or whatever.


THAT´s what I love in stories!

[maddalia.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the late comment! I've only really beta-ed a bit, but I think it's important to keep the author's intentions and style in mind, while at the same time making your own point of view clear - basically what people have said above. I'd tend to make comments like 'are you going for this effect? Try this to make it clearer that's what you're doing, because right now it could be taken as this or this.' As well as spelling, grammar, typos, Britspeak etc.

As a writer, I've had a very positive experience with betas. As a reader, I suppose I do have some sense of ideal Prosfic. I like a good bit of case as long as its not convoluted or seems to be put in as token interludes between sex/other relationship scenes (I've scrapped some of my own fics in despair when I find myself guilty of this *g*). I don't like domestic fics, although a bit of 'the lads at home' here & there is ok. I love romance when it's done (my idea of) right, which basically means 90% physical and not excessively wordy! *g* Angst is fair enough and can be brilliant when done well, but a story will turn me right off if it gets excessive, or if the lads get into histrionics. Sometimes I roll my eyes and think 'no, they are too intelligent for that.'

Telling rather than showing: now that is a good point. I don't mind this in other people's writing - I appreciate the 'showing' factor but am rarely put off by 'telling' - but I hate it in my own, and it's a fault I know I have. The reason is that I'm a very visual/aural writer, if those are the right words - I see and hear my fics. So unless I'm having a particularly good day, my first drafts come out looking like scripts with stage directions, and the writing is therefore awful. Often doesn't stop being like that, either.

Is this leading up to me submitting a story here? Yes *g* but I don't have anything yet. How would one go about volunteering a fic later on, like when the game's been on for a few weeks?

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I'm doing this in all the wrong order, posting this after diving into the first story. Ahem. But that gave me an idea of what I should probably mention here.

I have beta'd regularly for one Pros author and a couple of times for another. The latter was generally just swift Brit-checking. I've had a couple of people beta my efforts, both via email/chat on the net and by sticking a friend down with a printout and a pen.

Overall, I can be very, very picky at a word and sentence level. But knowing what makes a story structure work, I'm not the best. I can take it apart, but putting it back together, sorry, but no.

I do know my spelling and grammar, and I've read enough style guides and lists of common mistakes. But... I tend to ignore Strunk and White totally. Partly on a "it's an American book, and I write British". But also... I just don't like it! Way too prescriptive. For style guides I use the Oxford Guide to Style and Fowler's Modern English Usage - and a modern version of Fowler's at that. I have no truck with the people who claim Fowler's was 'dumbed down' after about 1920. Language moves on.

I notice non-British terminology and grammar. (Interesting factoid: I think the US must still teach and use the subjunctive far more than in the UK. We use it far less, especially in speech.) I notice typos. I am very, very good at spotting other people's typos. Not so my own, alas. I have no problem with the occasional passive. Nor with a sentence fragment or two. And I probably wouldn't comment on either unless someone asked for 'everything you can find' or it was hard to read.

Other things I notice: well, it's pretty much a year since I discovered Pros fic, and I can tell you that I have seen the words 'canted' and 'cerulean' more often in this year than in the rest of my life. I quite like canted now, but cerulean? The rest of the prose will have to match up to that or I shall query! But I actually do like to see different styles, and some artistic lyricism is no bad thing. Changing from one style to another in the same piece, though, I'll ask if there's a reason for that.

Things I personally find out of character - and this is very much a personal thing - include tears (unless there's a major breakdown in the offing - really major); explaining their emotions to each other in any coherent or grammatical fashion, especially when they are recounting how they felt in the past (trying to find an example - shall edit this when I do!); and thinking it would be remotely feasible to let other people know they are having it off in a canon CI5 universe without major consequences. Oh, and long discussion mid-sex.

I will notice all of those and comment, but I will forgive nearly all of them if the story is engrossing or if it's clear that it's part of the author's personal style. Some authors love introducing every sentence with participle clauses. Others always start with the main verb. It would be a shame if we all adhered to the same Pros House Style, so to speak.

From the first beta'ing session, it looks like a lot of my opinions (and they are just that - opinions) are at odds with the majority, so be warned!

What do I want people to tell me? Everything. Don't assume someone else will tell me. Three separate people read something I had done which mentioned something that in canon explicitly isn't there. It was the non-Pros friend who said "Did these exist in 1980?" I need help with tautening my paragraphs and sentences. I can spend five paragraphs describing stuff that isn't remotely relevant. I am particularly bad at endings.

Which seems like a good place to stop :)