New weekly CI5hq game?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

A while ago someone I was chatting with wondered why even people who asked for it in their posts never seemed to receive any constructive criticism for their stories - instead, although it was also welcome and happy-making, people almost invariably left positive comments. We paused briefly around whether not leaving feedback meant that people didn't like a story or just didn't have time to read it, and then we moved on to the different ways people betad stories, and how even betas disagree sometimes, and what betaing meant anyway, and... well, lots of things, all about writing. It was a fun discussion!

Apart from being a cool way to pass the time though, an idea was born, and I'm finally getting around to posting it - would people/anyone be interested in a weekly feature on ci5hq that was about writing itself - writing for Pros in particular, of course, although it would overlap into general writing. It could be done in lots of different ways, although it might be good to have a regular format too, but it would look at the more practical side of writing rather than the stories themselves - what makes one story work and another difficult to read, how can a fic be improved, where should apostrophes go, and what in the world is tense anyway, and does it matter? *g*

One thought was that people who were interested could volunteer a story to be betad by anyone and everyone who fancied it, to get different thoughts and ideas going - perhaps it would be posted one week, and beta comments requested for a specific day the next week (made as comments to a new post - I'll have to think about the mechanics!), for general discussion by/with the author and betas altogether. And the stories volunteered needn't be new, they could be ones that we've already posted, but perhaps think might benefit from a bit more work.

Most of us hope that our writing will improve over time, and one way to help that along is via feedback - about the things we might be doing wrongly, or awkwardly, or not doing at all, as well as about what we're doing right. So... what d'you reckon? Writers and readers all welcome - you don't have to be a writer to have valuable insight into whether a story is good to read! Does anyone fancy it?

Comments

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

Short answer: YES.

Although, is weekly too frequent?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh good! *g* Re timing, I suppose it depends who's interested, and what time people have to play - what's too frequent for some isn't often enough for others! We could probably take a poll about it if it turns out that more people fancy the idea...

It wouldn't necessarily be the same people doing it each week either, and of course one writer would probably only volunteer their work every few months or so, depending (again!) on how many people are interested... If there were lots of people interested, and it was for example monthly, then it'd take forever to have people comment on your work, and people might be put off waiting... depends how patient they are, of course!

Something to think about!

[murphybabe]

Me, please! I am aware of some of the things I do wrong(ly) (ha!) but I'm sure there are far more I don't know about.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh yeay, three of us then! *g* (And hee, I know exactly what you mean! *g*)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

That was me - at least that was probably me, although I know I have had this conversation about "how do you ask for people to tell you about the mistakes as well as the good bits?" with more than one person, and so possibly you have too!

I am certainly up for this: I keep tinkering with stuff that I have already posted and wondering whether I am making it better or worse. And I will willingly chuck in before-and-after-beta versions of anything I have so far posted - and if I manage to produce anything new and reasonably short, ditto. I promise not to sob in a heap when you pick on my favourite line as unintelligible.

I'd also be very very interested to see a discussion specifically on what betas do. Cos I have no idea what I'm doing, really :) I look at some of Maddalia's stories before posting, and make comments which she pretends are helpful and then ignores (heh, no, not really, although sometimes she probably should ignore them); and both she and Slantedlight have had a go at mine; but I have no idea what other betas do.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay, four of us!

And yes, it was you most recently, but it's an old old conversation, had many times with many people... only this time we'll see if we can do something practical about it! *g*

I am very determinedly not starting to talk about what betas do right now, which I'm ever so tempted to do, but I have to go home and work first, having been prevented from doing so here at work by... well, different work. *grumps*

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I'd certainly be interested. I haven't done a lot of Pros writing, mostly because of my own dissatisfaction with my work in this fandom. Having Pros fans give their opinions as to what does and doesn't work for them in a story would be invaluable.

Oh, and on a side note, how does one know that their LJ is using the new icon drop down feature? Does it have to be set up?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay, five!

If your lj isn't using the new icon drop-down feature, you'll need to set it up. I gather that S2 journals aren't automatically opted in - I had to do it myself, because I liked it in other ljs. Now, how did I do it...? *g* Okay, I think it was: Journal Style - Customise Journal Style, and then change "Disable customized comment pages for your journal" to "Yes". Changing back is the opposite, of course, if you decide you don't like it. I dunno, I like it very much, so I hope you do!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. Yes please.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Six - excellent!

[loyseofverlaine.livejournal.com]

I'd be in. I'm fascinated by the nuts and bolts of how to write properly, and always looking for improvement. And as a non-Brit, I need advice on language.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Seven! *g*

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

I think it's a good idea, in theory :D Rambling about writing in general is always fun, and rambling collaboratively about Pros writing with the aim of producing as good Pros stories as we can sounds very positive.

Doing this kind of thing in another fandom has taught me that constructive criticism is quite a skill in and of itself, and different people's approach to "concrit" varies quite a bit - maybe a general gab about what we understand by it would be useful?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Eight - in theory... *g*

I agree that constructive criticism is a skill of its own, and perhaps also receiving constructive criticism too! Good idea about having a general gab about that first up... Gabbing and rambling together is good, too! *g*

So another fandom's done this similarly, or...? Was it a particular journal, or...? Can you tell I'm quite interested in seeing, just to get ideas about how things might be organised and all? *g*

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Just - yes! Everybody has already said everything, I think. Fab idea.

I do a lot of beta work in various fandoms and do a lot of fanfic and original writing. All hints, tips, etc. very gratefully received!! And I'll be more than happy to share things other people have pointed out to me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Nine! *g* I reckon it'll be dead interesting - though I don't for a moment expect everyone to agree... *g*

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely interested in joining in with this :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay, ten!

[cornishcat.livejournal.com]

This is a great idea, so count me in too.

I personally don't have the skills to be able to leave constructive feedback but feel that offering no comments at all (or only ones that skirt the pertinent issues), could be seen as rather back-handed criticism in itself.

This idea seems to offer a forum where people can share their experience, skills and viewpoint ... and might just give me the confidence to have a go at writing something myself.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Eleven... *g*

I'm perfectly sure you have the skills to give constructive feedback though, because (for me at least) that just means someone telling me what they found difficult, or didn't quite understand, or didn't like reading, or... you know, anything really. It doesn't need to include the technical "and this is how you fix it", because ultimately that's up to the writer (though suggestions are always helpful!)

Even more yeay for the idea that it might encourage someone to start writing, too! *g*

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Interesting idea. I admit I almost never comment negatively on a story, even to point out a typo. I've discovered that very few people really want help. I leanred this hard lesson from personal experience. I discovered that most of the writers who asked for an edit weren't happy to have what I considered major errors pointed out. They were okay with the occasional typo or puncutaton, but tell them the plot isn't working or it has a hole big enough to drive a lorry through, and the editor is dead meat. It's happened less often in Pros for me than in other fandoms so I occasionally beta/edit/whatever but I tend to be extremely cautious about any criticism, even gently stated. However, I have no problem having my own words picked at.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well if you were happy to offer a volunteer piece to be looked at, then that would be helpful too... *g*

I've come across similar strange and contradictory situations as you, I think - people who say they'd like an honest opinion, but really want that opinion to be Yes, it's brilliant! without wanting to accept the idea that it might not be... But then it can go the other way too, an author is perfectly entitled to disagree with comments made by other people - as you often point out, we all have our own perspectives on things, and what one person agrees with someone else will vehemently argue against... I think that the majority of people in Pros are mature enough to understand that though, and to realise that if they ask for concrit via a beta or this discussion or whatever, then they have to be gracious enough to accept it. And conversely, that the people interested in providing concrit realise that it's their opinion, and can't be forced on anyone! (Well, except in some really technical cases like full stops and capital letters and the like, and even then there'd be professional authors to use as examples of exotic usage, so... *g*)

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Certainly agree that concrit is valuable, interesting - and sometimes a minefield, as sc_fossil notes! Perhaps partly because comments are out in public, whereas beta-ing is more in camera *g* I sometimes want to make what I hope might be a concrit comment, but worry that it's so easy for them to be taken the wrong way (especially as we're doing it in writing, with no facial expression or tone of voice to soften the blow if indeed there is one). I've had the pleasure of being beta-ed *g* and found it immensely helpful.

Could be a very useful discussion to have, a chance for people to dip a toe into beta-ing in a protected environment *bg*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, concrit can be a minefield - there've certainly been enough faffs about it, even in my wee experience... In fact the first ever fandom faff I saw was over concrit, and I was gobsmacked at the whole thing! But I'm hoping that if it's being asked for and offered in a supportive environment that it'll all be okay. And Pros-y people are mostly pretty smart about stuff like that, I reckon...

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

I´m in, too!
So only from the readers view!
Maybe one story a month, with posting the comments a week later?

And one major discussion apart from that with "How do you want your story commented on?"
Maybe a poll with (five) or more possiblities, like:
"Please tell me about every typo, but my plot IS fine!"
"NO critics, whatsoever, please! (But tell me what you like!)"
"I want you to comment in length about my characters and plot, don´t care about the typos."
"Could I improve my characters? Just a short comment would be fine!"
"Every reader just one thing that nags him, please."
"I wanna know EVERY thought that went through your head, beloved and adored reader!"

And each writer has to include his choice in the story header!!!

That way at least I myself will promise to try even harder to comment every story.
Because I admit that sometimes I´m not commenting because I´ve got nothing to say. Sometimes not even sth bad.
(Everybody knows about rl intruding, so I won´t even bother to include that as an excuse.)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Twelve! *g* Readers' views are important too, after all, it's them we want to understand... *g*

Interesting thoughts about how to organise things too - perhaps we could give people a choice about what they'd like commented on... though I'm not sure about that second one, that's what ordinary posting and comments are for!

I know what you mean about not commenting too - it doesn't necessarily mean I don't like a fic, I might not have had a chance to read it yet, or I might not be able to think of anything to say that's not what everyone else has just said, and even though I think a simple Thank you! is enough, I know other people don't think so, and it can all get very tangly...

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a fascinating conversation, sorry I missed it.

I would read with interest if you guys do this but to be honest I would hesitate to put one of my stories foward. I am working with a beta at present. I still have some stories that were posted without--and I'm sure they could use help, but I'm always pretty wary of a new critique outlet until I have a better feel for what it will be like. There is always more to learn but I get anxious about giving or receiving HARSH or cruelly stated instead of helpful feedback. I find it discourages people from writing more and I would hate to contribute to anyone not writing.

So I would want to see what sort of critique culture is fostered first.

Another thing is that I would hope the crits wouldn't be taken over by one or two vocal people with very specific likes/dislikes that have more to do with preference than anything, and it becomes an unofficial 'don't write about this or use this sort of characterisation because you'll be slapped down' rule. You know-- like we all have ideas and plots we think have been written to death but that's no excue to say someone CAN'T write about them.

I am not tring to be negative here...though I realise it sounds like it. You have a great idea. I just feel wary of how it will work out in practice.

The truth is you are all probably older than me and know more about taking and giving concrit, so maybe I am worrying for nothing.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, this one was a conversation in person, though it's come up alot in various places over the years - and hopefully we can have more of them at the comm now! *g*

You're right about harsh comments discouraging people too, and I hope that's not what people will do here at CI5hq. But then everyone will have asked for comments too! There needs to be understanding on both sides - that people have different opinions, and that they have the right to disagree, and that no one either should, or means to be cruel in what they say. The whole idea is that we're helpful to each other, and that we learn things! Sadly, I don't think that age is necessarily a guarantee that people will treat each other well, but on the other hand I do think that Pros seems to be special in having mostly sensible and calm and smart people hanging around... *g* I can't imagine anyone telling you that you couldn't write such-and-such a plot, for instance. I can imagine them telling you that it's been done before, and they'd like to see something fresh - but it's okay to say that, there's a world of difference between the two things.

Oh, and I wouldn't like to see the discussion taken over by just a few people either - but except for times when not many people are able to comment, I can't see that happening in Pros either, or at least I hope not!

I shall cross my fingers that you see a nice way of doing things here, and decide that you'd like to join in! *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I think you and I have had that discussion as well - or was it me & someone else? *g*

Anyway I'm up for it. Probably on older published fic as I have a couple that could do with a fresh going over before I send them to proslib or AH.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lucky thirteen! *g*

And yeah, I think we probably have had that discussion, perhaps even several times! It's come up in fandom in general I think, too - which means you could actually have had it with anyone else as well! *g*

[margaret-r.livejournal.com]

I'm in! Constructive criticism is invaluable to a writer and I'm always keen to know what works and what doesn't work for people with my writing - the same with anything that I beta. Having other opinions and knowledge will be great.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Fourteen! Excellent - thank you!

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Good idea and definitely worth a go.

btw, I really like milomaus's idea. The author's choice of one of those options could be incorporated in all fic headers as a guide for prospective commenters.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Fifteen, yeay!

I've got to admit that I was a bit hesitant about Milomaus' idea, because I thought it could end up being restrictive, which was exactly what I'd rather avoid - and taverymate has put my reservations into much more eloquent words than I yet had below! There might not be any harm in authors being able to request a particular focus perhaps, but saying that's all they wanted to talk about could sometimes be less helpful rather than more, I think... But we'll see! I shall have a think on, and hopefully post something this weekend!

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

New weekly CI5hq game?

Really just a quick placeholder as the threads are collapsing.

Love the idea of encouraging both more public con crit and the idea that con crit makes a story better - which is a GOOD thing for both writers and readers!

Heartily dislike milomaus's suggestion of a poll that would let authors limit what people could comment on. I'm speaking specifically here about your not-yet-created discussion posts at CI5hq.

Often, what authors think is "just fine" is, in fact, a problem. An author is not necessarily the best judge of what problems extist in a piece. If you can't identify a problem, how can it be fixed? So an author might put forward a story and choose "Please tell me about every typo, but my plot IS fine!" when the story has so many plot holes it leaks like a sieve. And an author who says they don't care about typos? They might not, but I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of readers do care. Letting typos continue on is inexcusable in a discussion focused on improving writing skills!

I don't, however, have any problem with an author asking for extra attention in a particular area. So all parts of a story would be open for comments, but an author might want extra feedback on characterization or voices or period details, etc.

Also, as a reader, I really, really despise it when an author (or vidder or fan artist) tells me how to comment. If I can't give an honest opinion - and yes, that includes the possiblily of identifying problems or making negative assessments, though I'm not talking about mocking work or being deliberately malicious - then what's the point?

Under contraints, the possibility exists that if I comment then I might have to lie by omission. While that might make the author/vidder/artist happy - well, it's a distortion of my actual opinion.

If an author/vidder/artist doesn't want full and honest opinions and demands limited forms of positive commentary, then I simply won't comment. There's no point if I can't be honest. If I'm going to take the time and energy to critique a work, I'm going to honor the work by being honest.

If an author/vidder/artist says they don't want criticism (constructive or not), I'm not going to force my review down their throat or deliberate try to annoy them by commenting in their own space where they have noted a preference.

But at the same time, if I do write a review or make a recommendation elsewhere , I'm not going to censor myself because a review is not meant for the creator, it's meant for other readers/viewers.

Please, keep open the options for commenting. I have every confidence that given the people who've indicated interest, your participation, and the forum itself that the con crit sessions won't turn into a dog pile of malicious commentary meant to terrorize and demoralize the authors.

That's not to say that some authors might be surprised or even hurt by some commentary but as you note elewhere, learning to accept criticism is also something that can and should be practiced.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Bother, I thought threads didn't collapse until you got to 50 comments - that must have changed when I wasn't looking!

Heartily dislike Milomaus's suggestion of a poll that would let authors limit what people could comment on.
If that was the result of it, then I'd heartily dislike it too, and I have to admit that I wasn't thinking of it that way - for absolutely all the reservations you express above! Limiting comments in a discussion to what the author might like would, as you say, be the opposite of helpful - it could reinforce prejudices that we have, and that's not the point at all!

I did wonder if it might be useful for authors to be able to say something like "I'm particularly interested in focussing on..." though, because there are often things tht we worry about and if people go off to talk about something else, and we then have to wait another several months for our next turn at being critiqued, we'll probably just carry on worrying... Whereas having someone say "Yes, I thought your plot was a little stereotyped, but what I really struggled with was the way you used so many adjectives..." could help things be put in perspective...

If I can't give an honest opinion... then what's the point?
Quite! No one wants to be mean or cruel (or at least I assume not, particularly in the Pros that I see!), but opinions and comments and discussion are supposed to be just that - not little tick-boxes that someone has pre-formatted for us. I can't stand the idea of things that are too controlled myself! I tend to think that anyone too worried about what might be said will peer at things from the back - and hopefully when they see that everyone's helpful and kind (or at least well-meaning!) will eventually come and play too - so there shouldn't really be a need for people to try to limit things.

The way I see it working at the moment is that volunteer writers will submit their story, perhaps with questions they'd specifically like answered, but that comment will be completely open. The general question/s should be What do you think of this, is there anything you struggled with, is there any way I can improve it?, and hopefully that's what writers really want to know, at the end of the day...

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

I'm in! (as you know - I'm always looking for constructive crit! *g*)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sixteen, excellent! I think we have a quorum... *g*

[maddalia.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely in! As a writer certainly -- I need all the help I can get! -- as a reader I'll do my best but I'm hopeless as a beta. I'm either too picky or not picky enough (as moonlightmead will tell you from experience *g*).

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Seventeen! And lol - is there such a thing as too picky? *g* After all, authors don't have to follow your advice, but if they know your thoughts then at least they can choose what to ignore... But maybe that'd be a good topic to start with, too... *g*

[roven75.livejournal.com]

This sounds very interesting indeed!
I'm not a writer, sadly, but very fascinated by the writing and betaing process.

This discussion you mentioned has occupied my thoughts more than once in a similar form. I've realized
that people write and put their stories online for different reasons. Some of them do it purely for
enjoyment reasons and don't really care for any kind of feedback when it comes to the writing itself, which is totally fine.
But it seems there are plenty of people who would like to benefit from the opinion of others, and in my opinion an
endeavor like this would be beneficial for the most part.

I can't imagine anyone in Pros would deliberately phrase any criticism in a cruel or mean way, so I can see this working
out well. Of course, it's still different than talking to people in person, where we have additional aides like emphasis,
inflection, facial expression, and whatnot. In that way, this would also be a great exercise for readers and especially
beta readers, what to focus on and how to phrase it concisely and without upsetting people.

Weekly seems a bit too much to me, I'd say at least biweekly if not longer, so people have time to prepare properly, which would
help with discussion and participation I think.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I don't think you have to be a writer at all to be interested in the way stories work, so yeay, do join in! (And maybe you'll change your mind about not being a writer, through the course of it all... *g*)

People definitely write and post stories for all sorts of reasons - and not every writer would be interested in something like this, or even in learning to write any differently than they've worked out how to do by themselves. But for the people who would like to get a bit more out of it, I think this could be really interesting... And as you say, hopefully people all know that they have to be patient, and assume that everyone else means the best, from whichever side of the comments they're sitting!

Timing's an interesting question, and it's going to vary for everyone... On the one hand, as you say, people need time to read and think, but on the other hand if it's too infrequent I suspect people will lose interest. It's that critical momentum we want... *g* I suspect it'll take some trial and error to work that out...

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Very tentatively yes, but as a reader and non-author as I am very aware of the heady heights in which you lovely authors circulate! 

Having offered my services (thanks to your encouragement!) as a beta and had very positive feedback from the three authors I’ve helped so far, I must be doing something right. I am always positive, but at the same time comment on or highlight what I think could be done better. I look on my comments as a gentle challenge with usually a suggestion or two to help the process. This includes basic grammar and spelling, but also references to the characterisations, canon and fanon. My Brit check (although I say so myself) is very comprehensive! I am also very clear that whatever I say, the story remains the author’s and they can take or leave my input and I have absolutely no problem about that.

I understand and accept most of the previous comments especially about the different reasons authors write and I would do my utmost to take those reasons into consideration as well as acknowledging the type of fiction (het, gen, slash, etc).

Time-wise – I‘m always busy with RL, but I can usually find time for The Professionals!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - ah, but there are tricky thermals and sudden dips of dead air even in the heady heights, so I reckon anyone's comments that help those to be spotted are welcome! *g*

I really do think that any and all comments are (or should be!) helpful to an author - even if they simply read them and then think Nah, that's not how I want to do it... Different points of view about everything are surely good!

Sounds like you'd be a lovely contributor to these posts, so I hope we see you here! *g*

[murphybabe]

I answered this early, and have only checked back today - to find 50+ comments. So, here's a ramble about my thoughts having read through the whole thread again.

I found myself agreeing with most things. I nodded to Milomaus' poll idea. Then I nodded again to Taverymate's response, and then a couple of others. Possibly this says that I'm easily led *g*, but I'd prefer to think that I am open minded and willing to trust those who have expressed an interest so far. I haven't yet seen anything unpleasant on the Pros sites - if anything, feedback can be fairly bland and - dare I say it - overly "nice". And I know I am guilty of this.

However, I think there is a difference between offering an encouraging comment when you read something on e.g. The Safehouse, and deliberately beta'ing or offering constructive criticism when specifically asked. A lot of my immediate responses are because I enjoyed reading something and want the author to know someone out there bothered to read it. [Hmmm, personal insecurities showing here?] There have been things I have commented positively on that at the same time have had me blinking at plot holes, or characterisation. I don't believe that a comment is the right place for me to say, "Well I really enjoyed your description, but in my opinion x wouldn't have responded like that..." I will say, though, that all my comments about enjoying things are genuine, and I am more inclined just not to respond if something didn't work for me.

Which brings me to another point. Much of my job involves giving feedback in a constructive manner, often to people who are not successful in their application (but obviously this doesn't apply here.) There are different ways of giving feedback and people can receive it very differently. It's complicated by the fact that this is all written, as several of you have pointed out, and I think we need to be quite careful about our own biases and hang-ups. I know, for example, that misplaced apostrophes drive me mad, but I can sometimes happily overlook non-British-isms.

Having said all that, I'm really looking forward to it! I trust you all, and I'm quite happy for some to look on and see how it goes, and others to dive straight in.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee - I've nodded to several moderately contradictory ideas myself - but it all works out in the wash, I reckon, when there's been a bit of time to mull over how they all fit into things... *g*

I know what you mean about being hesitant to offer constructive criticism to a fic that's just been posted, although now and then I've pointed out a type because I know I'd want someone to point out things like that to me! But it's also true that whilst every reader likes different things, every writer wants different things too, and some would actively like to receive concrit when posting a story, so... let's hope that we can help with that here!

We do all have our own biases it's true - one of mine is the opposite of one of yours, I can live without properly placed apostrophes if I have to, and if it's only occasional, but non-Brit-isms set me off reading in another accent entirely, and suddenly it doesn't seem to be Pros to me any more - which is all I want from fic, Pros! *g* I think voicing these things is okay, and explaining why they're important to some/readers, but at the end of the day everyone needs to remember that we do all have our own preferences, and they're all different, and the writer's preference may simply be different to some readers rather than "wrong"... Hopefully gentle reminders will be all that's needed!

And yeay - I'm looking forward to it too... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Just a thought - I found this via a Fanlore link: http://www.webcitation.org/5uyOmp5VU. it's very thorough, perhaps a little long for some people, but I do like the attention to detail ;)

A couple of points that may need inclusion in whatever overall guidelines get made - not commenting to request changes to a story just because it doesn't go where you think it should go (although there are times when that would be appropriate, commentary on whether an ambivalent ending worked or not is preferred instead of whether the reader thought it 'should' have been more positive in order for their - the reader's - needs met); and I think it would be good for writers to make some sort of starting statement about what they had hoped to do with the story, which may draw people into the discussion more as well as focus their minds.

Other than that - what are the mechanics of it? Say I have a story that I posted a while ago but wasn't happy with and have been tinkering away in the background - would I post the revision draft as well as a link to the original post? Just pondering.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Interesting piece - I don't agree with absolutely all of it (such as the point made that you should only critique what the writer has asked you to critique - my thoughts run more along the lines of taverymate's up above) but it does make some very good points, and I like alot of the metaphors she uses! Took me a while to get through it all, I must admit... *g*

What are the mechanics of it - that's the big question, and the one I've been pondering on over the weekend myself, right down to how many "guidelines" need to be given by either mod or individual author! *g* As far as your more specific question goes - I think that every story gets a once-over and the author needs to choose which version they send. Sending even two versions at once would probably get confusing in ways that we can't even imagine right now, and definitely not until we see how this works! It might also put people off who have time to read and comment quickly but critiquely (it's a word now! *g*) on one story, but less inclination to "do a job" and re-read the whole thing twice or more, even before they put fingers to keyboard t all... *g* Although that's not to say it couldn't be done - it might turn out that we have enough people who love working that way to give it a go, but I think we'd better see how things go first... *g*