Reading Room VI - The Lads in Other Times - The Alchemist's Measure, by Kitty Fisher

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Reading Room VI - The Lads in Other Times - The Alchemist's Measure, by Kitty Fisher
Title: The Alchemist's Measure
Author: Kitty Fisher
Pairing: B/D
Link to story: Available in Dark Fantasies 2, on the Circuit Archive, on the Hatstand, and on the Proslib CD.
I suspect that this week's story may either produce far fewer comments than usual, or many more. It is by Kitty Fisher, so the writing is sumptuous, it is very heavy on the BDSM - specifically the SM - and I think it is unbelievably hot.

We're back in Restoration times, amid turmoil and tumult. Charles is newly on the throne, people who have stayed away from England are returning, and at court, new and old are jockeying for position. One of those to find himself currently out of favour is one Lord Raymond Doyle, spurned by the newly-virtuous king and in desperate need of money. That money, he will acquire through his marriage with the ambitious Lucy York, of a rich but non-noble family.
Unfortunately, he doesn't want her. He doesn't love her. He detests her. He sleeps with women but prefers men, and his interest in men is entwined with some very specific needs, needs difficult to meet:

Slumping against the wall, Doyle felt the tension screaming in his muscles. The brandy seemed to have had the strength of water and its spirit hadn't taken even the edge off the turmoil that clouded his thoughts. Lost in abstraction, it was only after a while he realised exactly what his hands had found and were toying with.

He was suddenly very still, his skin as pale as the fine, white linen of his shirt.

Almost of their own will his fingers moved, caressing the hunting-crop, flexing its supple length, testing it. His tongue wetted lips instantly too dry.

Looking up, his eyes met those of Murphy. The valet was standing in the doorway, an old, worn suit of clothes over his arm. The glance held for a long time, until overwhelmed by the affection and pity in the deep blue eyes, Doyle looked away, throwing the whip to the floor, his face suddenly burning with shame.

Putting the clothes down, Murphy stared at the harrowed countenance before him and spoke very softly, very carefully. "This may not yet be a city of vice, yet even here there is somewhere you could go."

...where, with inevitability, he meets Bodie, who is also looking for something:

Every time he visited a new bawdy-house his blood sang with hope; hope that here, finally he would meet the opposite of himself, the half to make him whole. Perhaps this time he would find someone who could match his dark lusts; someone who would mirror his own strange desires.

...and we then get one of the hottest scenes, for my money, in Pros.

It starts with a long slow build-up: Bodie pacing around the overheated room, adjusting the candles, lifting things out of a chest to inspect them, and an hour of waiting, before Doyle is ushered into the room. There is some leisurely, almost languorous, description, as they slowly disclose to each other what they are looking for, before:

Doyle's voice was suddenly breathless, "She said you would do what I want."

"And what do you want?" Bodie asked the question, no longer afraid of the answer.

"To be bound, beaten."

"Truly?"

"Yes."

The details of the night they spend together take up, I would guess, at least a quarter of the story. This isn't tentative BDSM experimentation with gentle floggers that don't break the skin. The aim here is to cause pain. Both men carry scars already, and Bodie is intent on adding more to Doyle's back. A lot more. He strikes Doyle's face, uses his nails on Doyle's nipples, and breaks Doyle's skin open with a whip. And Doyle is taken to another plane of sensation:

The skill was masterly, leaving him racked and sobbing, mindless, burning with both pain and desire, flung far into the other country that Bodie had promised. The world had shrunk to the limit of the strap's touch. He only existed because of the fire that licked at his flesh, because of the man who laboured over him.

Shattered, they sleep, and awaken in each other's arms, and lie murmuring together in each other's arms, exchanging histories and confidences, before they must separate.

Doyle returns to reality (and we return to plot). He sleeps half the day, not realising that his marriage has been brought forward and is to take place the following day. Bodie, meanwhile, has decided he cannot leave it at one night, and spends the morning tracking Doyle down. The Doyle of today is calm and competent and takes the initiative, surprising the professional soldier with a blade at his neck when Bodie enters the house surreptitiously.

A much gentler session of love-making follows; this time Bodie hands control to Doyle. They start to make plans to flee to France. I've read this fic quite a few times by now, but I remember that the first time I read this, I was on absolute tenterhooks, fearing that Bodie would leave the house before Murphy told them the news about the wedding ceremony, and that it was all going to go wrong. Something about the extremities tied together in the story made me uncertain that a good thing could happen without disaster tied in. Happily, although Bodie leaves, he can't stay away, and returns in time to hear the disastrous news. Careless in the thought of his imminent escape, Doyle gloats when Lucy arrives at the house, and entirely fails to anticipate the vitriol of her reaction. When they realise what an enemy they have just made, they flee with all haste to the coast, where they spend their final night in England in an inn, before looking ahead to France and the future.

Well. Where to start?

I like this story very much indeed. Seriously. I love it. First, Kitty Fisher's writing. It's sensual. It's evocative. Bodie gazes at Doyle 'as if sipping dew'. Mmm. They drift into sleep 'smelling sweat and sex, and the faint fragrance of lavender'. Yes. I like the constant contrasts and the way they are bound together. It's not just the pain and pleasure. There's visual contrast. 'She imagined him with Doyle; the darkness next to the butterfly brightness of Doyle that she'd glimpsed so often at the theatre. He would be a perfect foil for Bodie.' And there's extremes of mood. We go from grimness to a sense of exhilaration in one sentence and then the slow horror of the next: 'Following ten dour years of Puritan rule, of ten years without any Christmas at all, the excesses had been heady and very, very sweet. Not that the King himself had been able to enjoy them: his yuletide had been spent at the bedside of his sister Mary as he watched her die, eaten alive with smallpox.' Extremes, tied together.

Second, I think she does convey that both of them are genuinely satisfied and satiated by what they're doing. I like BDSM fics, but I'd be interested to know whether any readers who are turned off by the concept (of BDSM in general, or the detail in this story) find themselves persuaded that the characters themselves might enjoy it. If any such readers have made it to this point, anyway.

Third, I am not keen on a meek, timid or bewildered Doyle, and I do think that historical AUs are prone to this. Perhaps that's because of those which are playing with regency romances and the like: if you're going to pastiche Cartland, someone has to play the fainting one in need of rescue. And it's always Doyle! But not here. I know it begins with Doyle alarmingly close to 'Ah me, I am weary', but this is a Doyle who fought at Worcester, who is alert enough to take an ex-soldier by surprise, and who is prepared to seize his chance when offered. He knows exactly what he wants and what he's doing.

I realise I gave away the entire plot, but it's the reading room. You're supposed to have read it :) And the writing is so good (well, I think so, at least) that to get at the structure, you have to strip it right down. And then one thing that I think is very unusual (and I may be entirely wrong about this!) becomes clear. In a lot of fics, not only the first-meeting ones, in the beginning comes the build-up, the two characters getting to know each other, the gentle ramp-up of interest and desire, quite often with the sex beginning very tenderly and later getting more frenzied as stress and strain threatens to overcome the relationship. If you divided it into four, the big bed scene would be in the third or final quarter. This is entirely the opposite. The (really) big scene is in the second quarter (in fact, it's all of the second quarter, perhaps shading over into its neighbours), and it's after that that we get the characters coming to know each other in the more usual sense. And the sex becomes gentler and more tender. I dunno. As I try to explain it, I become less convinced. What do you think? Is the structure what you normally expect?

One thing I'm not sure of is the significance of the title. Bodie is clearly the alchemist. There's a moment where Doyle considers Bodie: 'He wanted to know everything about this man who had so skilfully given everything that Doyle had desired; the alchemist who had taken away the pain, transmuted it into pleasure.' (Incidentally, that line, 'taken away the pain' is another amazing inversion.) And, again, 'Perhaps after all he was an alchemist, possessed of the secrets of the universe, possessed even of the secrets held close and dark to Doyle's soul.' What I don't understand is the meaning of the title: is it a taking of Bodie's measure by Doyle, or something else?

I have to admit that despite approving of a non-Cartland Doyle, I do still struggle to see my Bodie and Doyle in this portrayal. There are certainly touches. Bodie is an ex-soldier, now a spy. Doyle is stubborn beyond belief, and loyal: Charles may have cast him off, but he is still the king. But the circumstances and society that make them what they are in CI5 just aren't there in Charles II's reign. I can't really see Doyle as a peer; I can't see him as gentry, even, landed or otherwise. But I struggle to see them in a lot of AUs, from Harlequin Airs to Larton. Kitty Fisher has written other BDSM fic which is set in the CI5 world, and I think the modern setting works better psychologically - but the Restoration one adds some air of distance and decadence to it, somehow.

Anyway, struggling to see them doesn't stop me liking Harlequin Airs or Larton, and it certainly doesn't stop me liking Alchemist's Measure, or its sequel, The Devil's Apprentice.

On that note, a last thought. I was very tempted to include the Devil's Apprentice in this discussion, but the more I think about it, the more I think that the big question about Devil's Apprentice will totally unbalance any discussion about Alchemist, and people who had trouble with this story will definitely not like Devil's Apprentice. It takes us a lot further. So what I'll do - if it turns out that more than two of us have actually read Devil's Apprentice and are interested, and if other people don't mind - is post a little supplementary discussion in a day or two. There is absolutely no need to read that one - the fic or the discussion - as well, and if you're short of time and can only read one this week, go and make a start on next week's fic (Time Out: Past Tense) instead, because it's long. Don't get side-tracked by Devil's Apprentice. Unless you want to be, obviously...

In the meantime, back to the Alchemist's Measure. And questions.
(1) Did you enjoy it? Did you stop reading in horror and only pop in here to say so?
(2) Do you like BDSM fics? If you do, did this work? If you don't, did this persuade you?
(3) Do you see Bodie and Doyle in these portrayals?
(4) What about the historical background? Does the detail about the period anchor this fic down, move it all into a nebulous 'not my world' sphere where you can accept different mores, or merely make you wonder 'what the hell is a doublet? Or sarcenet? What's a molly? Argh!' (Admit it, who else had to look sarcenet up?)
(5) If you didn't read it, did this introduction tell you what you needed to know?
(6) fanlore.org has a quote from the publisher to the effect that this story was inspired by a Suzan Lovett picture. The picture is below. Does knowing the inspiration of a story make a difference to your reading of it?



Liaisons Dangereux by Suzan Lovett - click to enlarge

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've been waiting for this one - I do rather love these historical stories!

This isn't tentative BDSM experimentation with gentle floggers that don't break the skin. The aim here is to cause pain.
I'm interested that you pulled this out as the core (perhaps?) of the story - to me the pain that Doyle craves, and Bodie's also previously experienced, is almost incidental. I mean it's not incidental, cos it is what they want, but I tend not to notice the details of it as much as the fact that they're losing themselves to sensation. The pain makes the sensation real (it is the sensation) but it's the all-consuming nature of that sensation that's most important to me... Except that I'm not explaining myself well, because the the whip lashes and smacks, and twisting of nipples is important to it and leads to the final consummation, but... but perhaps I don't read it as pain on its own, for the sake of pain which would-be-weird-cos-that'd-hurt type pain. There's more to it than that... Which perhaps leads me to your question "Did you read in horror?" because no, definitely not! I've read bdsm stories and come away thinking wtf? why would they do that?, because the author apparently had no clue that there's more to bdsm than just ouch-that-hurts, but Kitty Fisher always leaves me understanding that there's more to it than the pain itself, that the sensation goes further than that, and she takes us there, right beside our lads...

Third, I am not keen on a meek, timid or bewildered Doyle
Argh, no! I think Kitty Fisher skates close to making Doyle a little weaker than he should be in this - not with the bdsm, and I love that she makes it clear that he fought at Worcester, and is Bodie's equal in that he heard him coming and was able to attack and turn the tables on his "surprise". But I do wish that he had more sense of purpose - Bodie works for the Duc in France, doing CI5-type work, but Doyle doesn't seem to have any such position, or the potential for it, which seems strange to me. Perhaps that was something later stories were meant to deal with...

One thing I'm not sure of is the significance of the title.
I've always thought that whilst Bodie is the alchemist (he's described as that in the story, I think), Doyle is his measure - the equal, the measure that matches him and thus fulfils him... So the title is actually describing Doyle, and the fact that Bodie has finally met his measure... *g* Well, that's what I reckon, anyway... *g*

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I didn't intend to suggest that the pain itself is the core of the story: you said it when you said "I tend not to notice the details of it as much as the fact that they're losing themselves to sensation.", and I used the quote about being "flung far into the other country" for that very reason. I do think that this is one of the Pros stories which goes into the most detail, and for me, reading, certainly, because it's all bound together with pleasure, with the more extreme in one direction, the more extreme in the other, it gives me the impression of terific sensuality.

The question of pain on its own for the sake of pain... well, this is in part why I separated out Devil's Apprentice. All sorts of questions there.

The question about the horror is because I have the impression from previous discussions that some people really won't want to imagine Bodie and Doyle in these circumstances. Also, it would be interesting to know whether people read discussions of fics they personally don't want to read!

I agree about the sense of purpose - seriously, hanging around in court corridors waiting for the royal favour? Although, then again, I suppose this is very recent for him, and he's been rather more active before then.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think it's that separation that I'm interested in, when other people read bdsm - is it because they're not going that step further that they see it just as ohmigod-pain, or...? Maybe it's a very logical reading of bdsm that gives people that slant rather than taking it further?

I didn't mean to imply that was how you were reading it - I know you're not! *g* Maybe I'm just jumping ahead to the potential DA discussion - although... that's perhaps as much the author intention, I think, than the reader's interpretation, whereas in AM the author is showing us that the one thing when done in the right way leads to absolute satiety and completion? I think I was trying to get at your comment that some people might have "read in horror" and why they would as opposed to getting past the physical pain thing, which is what the lads do... )

I did worry that I wasn't explaining myself clearly! *g*

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

"Bodie is the alchemist (he's described as that in the story, I think), Doyle is his measure - the equal, the measure that matches him and thus fulfils him"

Argh. Yes, of course. Complements to each other. I am an idiot. That's it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - but that's just me, other people might read it differently, and I'd be interested to know if they did! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

(Rats, my comment was much too long, so I've divided it into separate questions...)

I do still struggle to see my Bodie and Doyle in this portrayal
Oh noes! I totally see my lads in this (and other good AUs) and I love them for it... *g* I think that writing B/D in different universes is a fabulous - and completely different - skill. The author has to ensure that they retain all the characteristics that make them B/D at heart, and yet make sure they fit into a completely different world as well. Our B/D have grown up not just with completely different technology, but with all the psychological and philosophical advances that new technology etc gives us. Our B/D would think nothing of humans walking on the moon, though it might make them wish they could too - but they've seen it on television, it's everyday expectation for them. An AU (say Restoration) B/D though, has a world that's still limited basically to Europe, perhaps the exotic, relatively new American colonies, and not even know yet that Australia exists, never mind that the moon is actually big enough for people to walk on! Building on their canon characterisation, we could all make an argument for which of them would believe what - whether Bodie would dream of flying to the moon, whether Doyle's mind ticked away trying to work out how to reach it. An AU author has to be able to convince us that their argument (characterisation) of the lads means that they would act as she's described them - Bodie working for the French, or Doyle following the exiled court of Charles... And Kitty Fisher for me does in this story!

I'm curious - why aren't they "the lads", to you? What is it that makes B/D themselves, that isn't here for you? (I admit it took me a whilst to get into AUs too, I could never see the point - I do now! *g*)

And that must be enough for now, though there's lots of other things I want to think about and comment on - more anon! (And I'll be looking forward to the next post, too... *g*)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Totally missed this comment first time around, oops.

What is it that makes B/D themselves, that isn't here for you?

Hmm. Good question. There's all sorts of things that go together to make them them, and some of them are here: the stubbornness, the ex-soldier.. At its simplest, I suppose it might be that they aren't working together, and I don't get much of a sense that they are going to.

It's not that I don't like first meeting fics: I do, but I like them more either where they realise they're going to be working together in the future, or where they don't but the reader does (pick-ups when they are killing time before turning up at CI5 and so on). That sets up a lot of the reason for the banter, too. We certainly don't have the banter in this one, and in the sequel it is more lovers' teasing than workmates' banter.

Doyle's lack of filling his days isn't very Doyle-ish, either. I get the impression that CI5 Doyle has never spent an idle day in his life: night-classes, running youth clubs, all these people he still knows so presumably still makes time to see, all of which must be outside work, and it wouldn't surprise me if he has never not worked.

I certainly do see more elements of them than I often do in AUs, and Bodie is recognisable. Yes, I think it is probably Doyle's lack of purpose. I can understand disorientation and shock after ten years of fighting for a goal and gaining it, and... then what? And being bereft of purpose. But that's not really how it's portrayed, so yes. That.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Seeing that BDSM is my kink, I've read every story about it in the fandom. There are good ones, indifferent ones and awful ones. :)

This is a good one. I can take my BDSM pretty dark as long as both characters know where they're going and why. I detest stories that call themselves BDSM that are rape and/or non-con (whatever that is!). Rape is not consensual as far as I'm concerned. As I've said a thousand times before, rape scenes in a consensual BDSM relationship are different than rape, a violent act performed by one upon another without their consent.

Kitty Fisher is a master with BDSM. In fact, my favourite story of hers in all the fandoms I've ever read is Monopoly. This one is good also and definitely worth a reread.

And I love Suzan's portrait. Hot, hot, hot. I so easily picture Bodie and Doyle in this relationship and no, I don't need historical to see it. Given their dangerous natures (not jobs!), they could easily use BDSM for release and to exercise power over each other, an exchange that is freely given and wanted.

Thanks! Great job and a good excuse to talk about one of my favourite kinks.

(sorry for the edits. I shouldn't post when I'm hurrying off to work!)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, and thanks for commenting! I don't whether I have read every BDSM story in the fandom, but I have certainly done my best to. And I agree, Monopoly is fabulous.

You know, I didn't know about the illustration at all until I went fact-checking in the process of writing the rec. The funny thing to me about that portrait is that to me it looks like Doyle is the one who wields the whip.

I so easily picture Bodie and Doyle in this relationship and no, I don't need historical to see it. Given their dangerous natures (not jobs!), they could easily use BDSM for release and to exercise power over each other, an exchange that is freely given and wanted.

I am in total agreement here. I find it even more plausible in a modern setting than in a historical one. I think that's a good point about their natures too. It's not just the job...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Also, it would be interesting to know whether people read discussions of fics they personally don't want to read!

I do! Maybe not all of them but I certainly try at least to skim through interesting-looking discussions.

I have the impression from previous discussions that some people really won't want to imagine Bodie and Doyle in these circumstances.

(I've got a cheek as I haven't read this story but that fact has never stopped me in the past......). I don’t object to these circumstances in principle i.e. if Bodie and Doyle inflicting pain/pleasure on each other interested or entertained me I’d read it (and I think I did try to read this story in the past) it’s just that I’ve never understood the thrill or connection to sex which BDSM seems to offer a lot of people (and so I'm sure it’s *my* problem) and I, too, end up thinking now why would they do that? In a nutshell, I just don’t get it... Whips, leather, sticking balls in mouths (that’s another story, Pros, not mine) face masks, riding pretend horses, I find the image and idea of these things amusing, if anything, and images of Cynthia Payne and High Court Judges spring to mind. And reading about them is more boring than upsetting. But more importantly (for me) is that I think BDSM strikes at the very core of what *is* erotic and that is the equality between Bodie and Doyle - equality in sex and other things. Whether or not they actually both want each other at the same time is another matter but I want them to be equal and not submissive and doesn't BDSM involve a lot of submission? (I'm no expert.)

Thank you for your review and choice of story, a very interesting choice!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I've got a cheek as I haven't read this story but that fact has never stopped me in the past.

Laugh. But I am just as interested in the comments from those who choose not to read, or who choose to stop reading.

and so I'm sure it’s *my* problem

I wouldn't call it a problem. If everyone was into it, then we'd have a lot more stories about it. Clearly, everyone is not into it!

I want them to be equal and not submissive and doesn't BDSM involve a lot of submission?

On the part of one person, certainly, although it doesn't necessarily have to be the same person each time. I didn't have room to include everything, and one thing I should perhaps have mentioned was that in this story, it's made clear that Bodie has been the one in Doyle's position before ("I do know what you want. I have felt the same need myself, burned with it.")

And although Bodie's ostensibly the one controlling things, Doyle refuses a gag quite flatly, and Bodie accedes to that. Later on in the evening, it is Doyle who decides how far he wants Bodie to take things ("I thought you said you would make me scream?") So the power is not all with Bodie.

But if it's not for you, it's not for you. And yes, I agree about equality - it's one of my gripes with Doyle-as-delicate-flower.

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

The aim here is to cause pain. Both men carry scars already, and Bodie is intent on adding more to Doyle's back. A lot more. He strikes Doyle's face, uses his nails on Doyle's nipples, and breaks Doyle's skin open with a whip.

Hmmm. Well, while certain types of brutality may well have their place in fanfic *cough*... screaming, fear, sobbing, broken flesh, blood and pain to me = torture rather than a supersensual experience. However well it's written, whatever the context, background and set up, personally I can't get away from that - very possibly it's a failure of imagination on my part (and because I'm a wuss). Intellectually, I *think* I understand the correlation of pain and pleasure in a sexual situation, although I'd slap anyone who tried it on me, heh. In fact I just recently read "Venus in Furs" because of a discussion about it being published at a particular time when characters in another of my fandoms may conceivably have read and reacted to it… Anyway, I *get* why it's a popular kink, although I don't completely understand all the psycho-sexual doodahs going on. But if I ever enjoy BDSM in fic it really is as a kink rather than a major "thing", a by-product if you know what I mean - subtle hints or elements, "playing" at it, expressions of it in certain touches or behaviours, the way sexual encounters can suddenly change or get out of control, what's learnt about a sexual partner's psyche or past experiences etc. I can cope with darker or grey areas - doubts about consent, domination/submission, overstepping the mark - or fun with sex-toys or restraints or dressing up (yay!) - but I must confess grand BDSM set-ups involving the seeking out of permanent scarring and suchlike (which AUs seem perfect for!) don't really do it for me.

This is a great rec and topic for discussion - yay to you for such a detailed and thoughtful post. I like to be encouraged to think about what I react to in fic and why. And hearing others' thoughts!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

grand BDSM set-ups involving the seeking out of permanent scarring
Was that the impression you got from Alchemist's Measure, then? I've never read it that they went in search of the scarring itself, but that the scars from the crops etc are a by-product of the sensations they crave... Though I've read some fics that seem to focus on things like the scars and blood, and those stories never ring true for me either...

I tend to see their bdsm here as a "kink" too - they have sex in other ways as well, and love each other in other ways, but now and then they go a bit further with their touches and desires and restraints, for the joy of losing themselves in the darkness...

Now dressing up on the other hand, tends to leave me either giggling or just baffled... *g*

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

Was that the impression you got from Alchemist's Measure, then? Yes, kind of. Because clearly you can't thrash someone repeatedly with a whip or crop or whatever and *not* leave scars... and the viewing of the mutual scars and the stylistic reverence about them is more than my nambypamby little bdsm kink can handle :D I concede "seeking out" may be too strong a description though - you're right, it's about the act and resultant sensation rather than the visible results - but certainly that particular scene didn't for me fit into the "they go a bit further with their touches and desires and restraints" relationship where that is just one of varied ways they enjoy each other sexually. So yeah, in this fic, not a kink for me. More a wha?

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, and thanks for the comments!

Isn't it interesting how we see things differently? While not in the same league as "grand BDSM set-ups", I'd see restraints as definitely in BDSM territory, myself. But dressing up is on my "can happily cope with reading, but really don't quite get it" list - I am happy to be shown, led by the author, into why one of them likes the other to dress in a certain way, but they will have to show me, because it's not something I see.

I like to be encouraged to think about what I react to in fic and why. And hearing others' thoughts

Likewise! There's such a variety of thoughtful answers already. Looking forward to those on the other time zones waking up/getting home from work and joining in...

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

I'd see restraints as definitely in BDSM territory - oh yes, me too. And when I said "dressing up" I was meaning leather bondage gear or uniforms for example, something that goes with the territory if you like, rather than frilly underwear, heh! Really I think it's the force of the strikes and how that, while it may be an intense sexual buzz for Doyle, also makes him spasm and cry with pain. That's my particular line with this type of bdsm scenario. I'm not able to rationalise how that works in a relationship although I accept others can, and very articulately. And you know, here I am maintaining that pain and sex don't/shouldn't go together, when of course my mature self understands they absolutely, totally do!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

And when I said "dressing up" I was meaning leather bondage gear or uniforms for example, something that goes with the territory if you like, rather than frilly underwear, heh! Oh, right, I completely misread, sorry, and - re-reading - of course you meant that.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks for such an excellent rec - multimedia even (great artwork that I haven't seen before, so thank you, thank you!)

I'm with shooting2kill on not having read the fic, and also on not being keen on BDSM. Having said that, I quite enjoyed sc_fossil's Monopoly (which I wouldn't have read but for the Reading Room) - although it was the concept of the Monopoly game that appealed to me, not the SM.

To a point I agree with sc_fossil, that the extremes of their characters and lives could lead them to some extreme forms of gratification*, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

*E.g. I adore Helen Raven's Technique (http://www.kelper.co.uk/helenraven/technique.htm) (all except the actual sex scene).

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed pulling things together for the rec. It made me think quite a bit.

Sitting back and reading it now, I've only just noticed that of the quotes I included, one is about sipping dew, and the other mentions butterfly brightness. And there's something elsewhere in the text about silver scars as a web - and silk is strewn all through, of course. It all makes me think of Midsummer Night's Dream and the fairies or something: glittering wings in the darkness. I've also noticed that I really have made it sound quite brutal and not brought out the essential tenderness between them.

On the other hand, I too am glad I found that artwork! I had no idea about it until last week.

Very interesting that you mention Technique, and that you like that, without being keen on BDSM generally. Is this because she convinces you of the set-up, or of the... well, the psychology, I suppose?

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

"Is this because she convinces you of the set-up?" I'm just fascinated by those interrogation scenes where B & D are left alone with the villain but we don't see what happens. Actually it may just be Billy in ODWNT. They are so scary there, and Techniques works for me as a coda to that scene, taken to extremes.

So extremes are maybe not a bad thing. *g*

In answer to your question to Firle, your rec gives me enough info, thank you, certainly makes me want to read it (maybe skipping over the gory bits) - mostly because I love historical AUs. Last night was watching bits of my Favourite Ever Film, 'The Draughtsman's Contract'. It's set a few decades later (1694) but just swoon for the floppy white shirts and long curls...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I'm just fascinated by those interrogation scenes where B & D are left alone with the villain but we don't see what happens

Oh yes, me too! I can totally believe that CI5 might well resist cameras down there...

I love your icon, btw - now I half-imagine Bodie looking down at a laptop out of sight and reading this. Wonder what he'd think.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I haven't read it.
Although very well written, I disliked the BDSM parts of Monopoly to pieces and don't think that I'll ever read another BDSM story.
Yes, I could imagine that they would try it, but never as a habit.
I'm with S2K - it's boring to read and I want the equality between Bodie and Doyle.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, and thanks for the comment.

Yes, I could imagine that they would try it, but never as a habit.

Actually, I think Monopoly is much closer to the idea of trying it out than the The Alchemist's Measure is. In Monopoly, we get the idea that they are exchanging fantasies: rough anonymous sex in Old Kent Road (the lowest value square on the board -- although I gather things have changed in London since the board came out!) and unspecified imaginings for Mayfair (the top end). In The Alchemist's Measure, it's more than just fantasy; it's something that they need.

I am curious now; from the point of view of someone who didn't read the story, did the rec tell you what you wanted to know?

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"I am curious now; from the point of view of someone who didn't read the story, did the rec tell you what you wanted to know?"
Absolutely! ;-)
It was exactly what I expected from what I've heard earlier! And to be honest you've lost me with your rec with this:

Doyle's voice was suddenly breathless, "She said you would do what I want."

"And what do you want?" Bodie asked the question, no longer afraid of the answer.

"To be bound, beaten."

"Truly?"

"Yes."

What did you say? 'They need it'.
*shudders*

Oh, forgotten - thank you for the rec anyway! ;-)

[unoriginal-liz.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've really been looking forward to this discussion :) Well, more on the reading side than the contributing side TBH...

1) I didn't love or hate this story - I just didn't really engage with it. I don't know if it was the BDSM thing, or whether the characters just didn't grab me or what. I didn't stop reading in horror :) but I did start skimming.

2) BDSM just isn't a kink that does much for me personally - that said, I think there are some stories (and some ships) where it makes sense that the characters would be into that. And even though it's not something I'm adamant about, I could buy it in a Bodie/Doyle relationship. I see them both as being quite 'unvanilla' sexually speaking! I can believe there'd be an interest by either/both in kink, and I'm quite willing to read along! :) And I've definitely enjoyed stories where one or other is tied down, or stories that delve heavily into the power dynamic between the two.

But I'm not interested in this kink for its own sake. And this story is really heavy about it - it feels to me more like a BDSM story starring Bodie and Doyle, rather than Bodie and Doyle in a story that has BDSM. I don't know if I'm explaining it right! It's just that the more it gets into really BDSM stuff, the further away it gets from a place where it does anything for me - and the more distanced I feel from the characters.

Long-winded way of saying, 'it's just not my kink'. It's like that Sebastian story 'Wonderful Tonight' where Kate Ross is quizzing Doyle about what's going on with him and Bodie, and she asks whether the 'heavy' stuff they got into was 'playing with power dynamics' or 'playing with gender'. Wonderful Tonight is one of my favourite stories because Sebastian chose 'playing with gender' which IS one of my kinks :)

3) I think I'm with you on this one - I see flashes of Bodie/Doyle but I'm not wholly convinced. But characterisation is very subjective, and I just wasn't enormously engaged by the BDSM premise, so I mightn't be seeing the characters completely clearly.

4) I really liked all the period detail, and I think it was a really interesting idea to put BDSM in a historical context. It was unusual, and I found it interesting.

5) Definitely! Your introduction really got me thinking about this story in a fresh way, and looking at why things did and didn't work for me.

6) It is a pretty inspiring picture :)

Thank you for such a fantastic and comprehensive rec - I really enjoyed reading your take on this story :)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Wow, you answered every question! I am so impressed!

No-one has yet said they stopped reading entirely, which is interesting. They either gave it a go and got to the end somehow, whether avidly or skipping through, or they were confident enough that it wasn't their thing simply not to look at all. (I do rather expect that this may not be the case with The Devil's Apprentice.)

it feels to me more like a BDSM story starring Bodie and Doyle, rather than Bodie and Doyle in a story that has BDSM. I don't know if I'm explaining it right! I think you are and I think it's a good description, because Kitty Fisher is one of the few writers I have come across where I have thought "I want more of this. I wonder what the fics in the other fandoms are like?" and read quite a few of them, despite not knowing the programmes - I have even just bought a Highlander zine simply because it is by her, and I know nothing of Highlander. And despite not knowing the characters, I can generally follow her other stories through. It's more intense for me with the Pros stories because these are the characters I can visualise. But I have read other authors writing in different fandoms, and just have not been able to engage with the plot at all because I don't know the characters. With Kitty Fisher, I've been able to. (She's not the only one, but she's probably the best example.) So I think your description is a good one.

And yes, Wonderful Tonight... there really isn't much along those lines elsewhere in Pros, is there? (If there is, lead me to it...)

You're the first person to comment on the period detail, I think! I enjoyed it, too. I didn't quote much of the description of the surroundings or the background goings-on, but I could visualise the great house with its ripped-off boards, or the street Bodie walks down, easily.

Thanks for the comments; I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I'm always surprised when people equate BDSM with inequality. To me, that means they don't understand a thing about that sort of a relationship.

Think about this: why would Doyle trust Bodie with his very life while he's tied up and being flogged if he didn't have the utmost faith in Bodie? Nobody who has any sense at all would ever, ever, ever let somebody flog them or perform any other bondage or dominant acts unless they were totally trusting of their dominant. It would be utterly stupid to give yourself over to somebody whom you didn't know (read that, hated it, was in another story) or weren't totally equal in their relationship. Being the submissive doesn't mean the submissive is less of a man (or woman) or being used. The submissive isn't the lower form of life nor should he/she be not equal to their dominant in the decisions regarding the relationship where pain is involved. It means psychologically the submissive has a certain set of needs that he or she wants met and they have a compatible partner who prefers to dominate to provide those needs. Both people have specific things they need and they are in this marriage to provide each other with that.

I feel that anything that happens between the d/s should be outlined in advance, agreed to, boundaries set, etc. I don't think anybody with any brains should go out trawling bars and dives looking for somebody to beat them or cause any pain. Heck, nobody with any brains does it even for plain old sex. But hey, I'm old fashioned. :)

It's one thing to not like BDSM or it not be somebody's kink or read stories (or practice the lifestyle) but to equate BDSM with inequality, even when the submissive might wish for things someone else might find distasteful, such as humiliation, is far from the truth of how a safe relationship would be practiced by two adults who are both sane. We're not talking about mental cases here, but we're assuming both parties want the same things in the end.

Enough of that!

[lysimache.livejournal.com]

This! This, this, this.

I mean, really. This is a thing that I find just absolutely baffling about discussions of BDSM in this fandom. It's not your kink, sure, de gustibus and all that; you don't think Bodie and Doyle would be into it, well, I disagree, but okay, fine; but you don't like it because they're *unequal*?... That, I just don't understand. Good BDSM fic is not about inequality at all. It's about one of them trusting the other so much he can allow a power exchange to take place.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I guess I must have said something right! Thanks. You're correct. It's an exchange of power within the parameters of trust and acceptance.

I love good BDSM. I've read a varity of fandom and original fic with this theme. Most is so far out of the realm of any sort of believable kink to be painful both to me as a reader and to the participants! But get a good one and it's a thing of beauty. :) Of course, it's not for everybody, but at least make that decision with an understanding of the concepts rather than with incorrect assumptions. There are themes I don't care for myself. I move along when I read something I find not to my taste. Nobody is obligated to read themes or subjects they don't like.

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Thisssssssssssssssss.

It makes me so sad face.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hello again,

It would be utterly stupid to give yourself over to somebody whom you didn't know (read that, hated it, was in another story)

But it's in this story, too, surely. Doyle doesn't know Bodie, he just knows what Bodie is saying. He doesn't know Miranda, either: it's the first time he's been there. The only person who knows he's there is Murphy...

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do have a problem with that particular point. I do like the reason for the relationship to be something that's been acknowledged and discussed.

Funny thing is, in the zine I read recently that was labelled BDSM, I didn't like any of the stories but the one where Doyle goes to a place to be dominated with somebody who's hooded whom he's never seen before. That story had the hottest sex! What's a gal to do? *beg*

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

One thing about the writing is that it's almost dreamlike to me, fantastical. While I can discuss whether this is my Bodie and Doyle in character in it as if they are real, I absolutely don't see any of the story as.. well, realistic isn't quite the right word. I see it as out-of-time, a bit, a fantasy space, and I don't expect 17th century characters in this fantasy space to be negotiating limits in the way that people may before scenes in the twenty-first.

In fact, for me, a discussion along those lines in a fic like this would just kill the mood for me stone dead. I like it because Bodie seems instinctively to understand what Doyle needs and they don't need to communicate verbally; and because the two of them don't know each other and yet are both somehow drawn like moths to a flame to the same establishment on the same night...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

If part of the fantasy is, hey, these guys have just met, but we're going to find out they're a perfect match for one another/with lots of yummy sex, then I I think it is possible that explicit discussion of limits & safewords etc can dull the anticipation. So while it's usually recommended to have those things - and I can see that it might make a reader feel safer because the author knows what they're talking about, perhaps, or going without the negotiation wouldn't fit their 'reality' for a character, and there's always the "don't try this at home, kids" factor - I don't see it as ironclad necessity.

Or if you have to have it, then just a hint, rather than spelling it all out (wanders over to the circuit archive, selects 'bdsm' prompt, hits 'submit' with a grin) - e.g. " Ray understood at once and spoke his limits".

Maybe there are people who find that negotiation titillating. Not me. I read BDSM in a few other places, and find that it's hard to make that phase read in a fresh way.

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Agreeing with what sc_fossil says above, the equating of BDSM with inequality is really saddening. Yes, BDSM plays with power dynamics. This isn't a bad thing nor is it inherently unequal. It takes a lot of trust. No relationship is 100% equal on 100% of things 100% of the time. Relationships are like ships: you can't steer one by committee; it's fluid.

I had the most interesting discussion with someone recently about gay men, BDSM, and the construction of masculinity; the inciting item was an erotic video where the actors in question were real-life lovers doing a BDSM scene with each other for the first time. Long talk short, for them at least, it came down to "you (the scene's sub) are man enough to take what I (the scene's dom) give you". Submission isn't inherently less or weaker and feminine.

Yes, I am that much of a film, spectatorship, and gender theory nerd.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love it. You are absolutely right about the sensual nature of Kitty Fisher's writing. I just become immersed in the story every time.

I do like BDSM stories, provided they're well written. I wish there were more good ones in Pros. I keep coming back to the same authors - Kitty Fisher, MFae... Slantedlight's 'Enough Rope' does it for me too, wicked little image of bound Bodie, bending over for Doyle! I love anything good in the way of D/s, really, anything that shows them playing with the power dynamic between them, no-one else understanding the tensions of the job in quite the same way, the things that they do gnawing at them, constructing scenes as release, as (oh, these phrases from 'Monopoly'), "games as expiation, as benediction... " - "...Just the two of them. And games. Games that made their world seem sane".

...and let's not forget fun and pleasure ;)

As for the history, there isn't that much to contend with and what there is feels reasonably right. There were lots of disappointed royalists after the Restoration; Charles made promises to supporters and didn't keep 'em (basically he couldn't afford to); and while "molly houses" don't come into public view until the end of the 17th century, there's reason to think that something somewhat like Miranda's probably existed. I can definitely see the Lads in the story. Perhaps a wee quibble about Doyle's utter despondency because of Charles' rejection and the hopeless situation he finds himself in - I can go with it, mostly, although it would be more Doyle-like to be trying to find another way to do something about his situation other than just burn the panelling.

The picture doesn't do a great deal for me. The faces are great, very clearly them and there's a nice simmering moodiness to the scene. On the other hand the proportions seem off, especially Doyle's torso looks overlong, the weird skintight garment he's wearing on his nethers is just wrong as is the sheer amount of muscle on Bodie - I know he's a big lad and well fit, but he's never been bulked up like a Mr Universe. I'm just glad it inspired the writer.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, and thanks for the comment!

Slantedlight's 'Enough Rope' does it for me too

bah, do you know, I tend to go and look at the Automated Hatstand first now, and it's not there, it's on the earlier one. Do pay attention, that author :) Having found it, hee, yes.

There were lots of disappointed royalists after the Restoration

This is a period I know very little about, so this was interesting. Thanks!

The picture doesn't do a great deal for me.

I must confess that I feel similarly. I like the expression on Doyle's face, but I did end up trying to enlarge it to understand what he was wearing, which I think isn't the point of the picture! But if it was the inspiration for the fic, then yes, clearly it is a very good picture indeed :)

[maddalia.livejournal.com]

Thanks for a great rec!

I know this is a general observation, but:

"In a lot of fics, not only the first-meeting ones, in the beginning comes the build-up, the two characters getting to know each other, the gentle ramp-up of interest and desire, quite often with the sex beginning very tenderly and later getting more frenzied as stress and strain threatens to overcome the relationship."
That's interesting: it had never occurred to me before but I think you're right. I see it the other way round: my lads start off rough and get tender later! Maybe that's why I enjoyed this fic.

So, questions.

(1) Did you enjoy it? Did you stop reading in horror and only pop in here to say so?
Yes, I enjoyed it. I thought it was well written, hot and interesting. And I loved Murphy in it!

(2) Do you like BDSM fics? If you do, did this work? If you don't, did this persuade you?
I didn't know until I read this. I was pleased to discover I did, because I want to be open-minded about everything! I don't like all BDSM fics, though. I just think that this particular story describes the mix of pain and pleasure and how they feed into each other so well, that you can see why people would go for it.

(3) Do you see Bodie and Doyle in these portrayals?
Yes, definitely. I don't necessarily think that B&D would definitely be into BDSM, but I agree with what was said above about B&D playing with power, as equals - I don't get the BDSM/inequality thing either - i.e. if they were going to be into it, that would be why. But in this fic, Kitty Fisher takes the BDSM concept, and weaves it around the characters (or should that be the characters around it?) in a way that makes it completely believable. I was somewhat surprised by the romantic element, I must say: I don't think their falling in love necessarily follows from the events here, and withstanding the sequel, this story could have got on quite well without it. But what can I say? I like it when they fall in love!

(4) What about the historical background? Does the detail about the period anchor this fic down, move it all into a nebulous 'not my world' sphere where you can accept different mores, or merely make you wonder 'what the hell is a doublet? Or sarcenet? What's a molly? Argh!' (Admit it, who else had to look sarcenet up?)
I had to look 'sarcenet' up, lol. I like the historical background; I thought it anchored the story nicely. And period costumes are a bit of a kink of mine so I don't object to imagining how the lads are dressed! I generally don't like historical AU, at least not at the moment; I may come to like it later. But this fic is well enough done, and original enough in its concept - i.e. NOT just reproducing a historical romance with a fainting damsel Doyle - that I enjoyed it a lot.

(5) If you didn't read it, did this introduction tell you what you needed to know?
I read the fic over a week ago and had forgotten some details, of which I've now been reminded. So yes, this intro was great.

(6) fanlore.org has a quote from the publisher to the effect that this story was inspired by a Suzan Lovett picture. The picture is below. Does knowing the inspiration of a story make a difference to your reading of it?
It doesn't make a difference, no, but it was still good to see the picture. I'm not overly keen on it, but people's writing processes fascinate me and it's interesting to think that Kitty Fisher went from this image to her fic.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, glad to see you made it,

my lads start off rough and get tender later! Maybe that's why I enjoyed this fic

Now you put it like that, yes, definitely. I like this pattern too. Possibly because I just keep reading in the hope of more.

I don't think their falling in love necessarily follows from the events here

Oh, gods, now you have got me thinking. You're right. There's very little that shows that. Lust, yes. Exhilaration of finding someone such a perfect match, yes. And they are clearly, in that lovely Victorian-sounding term, 'compatible', in the post-coital exchange of confidences. But love... um.

I like it when they fall in love!

Yay!

people's writing processes fascinate me and it's interesting to think that Kitty Fisher went from this image to her fic.

I live in dread now that someone is going to edit fanlore.org to say "nonono, it was the other way around". But yes, because I wouldn't have gone from that image to this fic. Although, obviously, I am very grateful that Kitty Fisher did...

[murphybabe]

I'm a bit late to this discussion and I'm not sure I'm going to contribute much. Generally, I dislike the lads in historical situations and BDSM doesn't do anything for me, so with two things against it I was unlikely to read it anyway. However, I find this discussion, and the other one about The Devil's Apprentice, absolutely fascinating. Personally, I don't understand the concept of pain being linked with pleasure, and because I don't, very little of the fiction makes sense to me. Sebastian's Velvet Underground does nothing for me at all, and M Fae Glasgow's fic usually makes me desperately sad. There's one in particular where the equality is definitely missing (can't remember which one, but it ends with Doyle as a battered wife and making excuses for the brute Bodie) which makes me feel slightly sick as that's how many unfortunates end up.

Having said all that, there are two BDSM stories that do appeal, and I'm not quite sure why. One is Dark of the Heart by KK (on the ProsLib CD) and the other... darn it, can't find it. I'll edit this later when I've recovered my brain.

I can sort of see that in a job like CI5 one would be used to pain so probably it wouldn't be the big deal that is to cowardly me. I can also see that in a 'live fast, die young' type of job one would probably be quite open to experimentation and wild ideas. I suppose that it says something about my preferences that I like my lads to be fairly cosy, and although h/c can happen, the h shouldn't be irrecoverable and the c should be plentiful.

Sorry, I have wandered off topic here but I did at least answer the second question, if indirectly.

And I really appreciate the quality of this discussion, and I am enjoying all your comments and viewpoints.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I was unlikely to read it anyway. However, I find this discussion, and the other one about The Devil's Apprentice, absolutely fascinating

I'm really interested that so many people pop in only to read the discussion.

On M Fae Glasgow: There's one in particular where the equality is definitely missing (can't remember which one, but it ends with Doyle as a battered wife and making excuses for the brute Bodie) which makes me feel slightly sick as that's how many unfortunates end up.

That can only be Little Doyle, one of the two endings to Snowbound in Bene Dictum I. I absolutely agree that that one is... ugh, yes, that reminded me of a cowed and battered wife, totally. There are some really fluffy and fun M Fae Glasgow fics: there's one straight after Snowbound in Bene Dictum, for example, about ice-skating. (Erm, well, no. About sex, in the end, but it involves ice-skating...) I think anything labelled 'Sports series' is probably quite safe. But yes, M Fae Glasgow does take things in unexpected - and often unhappy - directions quite often.

Have had a look at Dark of the Heart now, and that one doesn't appeal to me at all; I think because of the participants. But that's much more full of 'you can say no at any time' and the like.

Thinking some more about the 'live fast, die young' thing and wild ideas, it strikes me that with super-fit and basically pretty aggressive young men who are used to making split-second decisions, you can as plausibly write a story of them going out and looking for kicks without taking 'sensible' precautions as you can write them observing all the conventions of safewords and the like. They're risk-takers, and I don't think they're always very good at assessing the risks they take. Surely they have far more chance of car crashes and whiplash than of falling through floors in gunfights (although admittedly we see Bodie do the latter and not the former) but it doesn't stop them downing two drinks in the pub and screeching off in the Capri. That's a stupid risk, but they do it. So.. yeah. :)

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I didn't like Snowbound or Bleak House. Not my sort of fic.

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

I feel like a bit of an eejit just dropping by to say not very much - but this is a great discussion and very interesting, so thanks for getting that to happen!

Read this one some time back; not a favourite by any means (I tend not to get "into" bdsm in a fic - love the b/d, not so much the s/m if you see what I mean! Reading actual pain or damage in sex is a big turn-off for me - makes me think pain! damage! rather than intensity! - so it tends to throw me out of the moment) though I think a case can definitely be made for the lads finding something they want or need in this (Wonderful Tonight, say, though that's a very different kettle of fish - and there's one whose name escapes me which has Bodie as the one who needs this from Doyle to let him release some pent-up feelings that periodically threaten to overwhelm him). I agree that Doyle would be actively doing something about his situation a bit more than is suggested here - he does seem a little bit too helpless - but KF writes beautifully as always!

Work is being a pain at the moment, but I couldn't let this go without saying how much I've enjoyed reading the discussion! Sorry, rather garbled here - just shooting past ...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hiya, and thanks for dropping by!

I'm really enjoying reading all the different comments too. I totally hadn't thought of some of the points raised - why/how do they fall in love (as opposed to lust), for example; or the idea of Doyle as Bodie's measure (== equal).

I definitely get the 'release from almost unbearable being' in a modern setting. In this, I think it's much more a product of who they are than of what they do.

Hope work calms down in time for the next Reading Room!