Reading Room - Theme IV - When the Lads First Meet

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

When we began trying to think of stories for this theme, and a few of those thoughts turned towards interesting chats and discussions, shooting2kill commented that sometimes it was great to just talk about Pros stories around a theme in general, rather than focussing on a single fic, and so I thought we might follow that up as a kind of special Reading Room episode... *g* So today, instead of just talking about a particular When The Lads First Met fic, I'm going to throw out a few questions that came up the other day, and some thoughts, and see what people think...

1) What do you think canon tells us about the way the lads met? We don't have much to go on - Doyle's comments in Close Quarters, and perhaps what they don't seem to know about each other at various stages... Or is there more than that? What do their on-screen personalities suggest about how they might have met, and how they might have interracted on that first meeting (and afterwards?)

2) Is there a fic that encapsulates how you feel they might have met? It might be your favourite how-they-met fic, but it might not be... What would you like to see in a fic about how they met? What about the opposite - are there fics that you think get it completely wrong, and why?

3) Something that came up in the mini-discussions was that how-the-lads-first-met could describe almost any Pros AU fic. We came up with one AU story where they'd already met (Gravity's Angel by Jenny Parkinson) but that was all. There are probably practical reasons for this, to do with the AU world building, but does it matter? Should those AUs count as "first meetings" for the theme (we didn't) or are they something else entirely? Is there AU fic that follows the same pattern as you imagine might have been seen in a CI5-based first meeting? Or...?

4) Um... what else? *g* Do you like first-meeting fics? Why or why not?!

Aaaaaand - anything else! What d'you reckon? Had any interesting thoughts about how the lads might have met...? What d'you reckon? *g*

Comments

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Ooooh-er, I always get a bit of a shock when I see my name appear anywhere...

OK, just throwing this in for something to mull over:

What do you think canon tells us about the way the lads met? We don't have much to go on - Doyle's comments in Close Quarters, and perhaps what they don't seem to know about each other at various stages.

(I think this is sort of conflating two things: how they met and what they do or don't know about each other?)

I can't actually remember what Close Quarters says about the way they met, but the question, what 'they *don't* seem to know about each other', is an interesting one....it always seems to be *Bodie's* past which is a bit murky with Doyle probing into his relationship with Keller in Kickback...and then someone (can't remember the name) asking Cowley something like 'is Bodie still alive?' introduces so many questions: why wouldn't he be? What kind of things happened to him in his past to endanger his life? How did this smartsuited man know our Bodie in the first place?

And then you do get Bodie probing into Doyle's arty past in Old Dogs, but I get the impression he's less interested in Doyle himself than in all the sexual opportunities which Doyle might have enjoyed.

Their first meeting: I suppose the classic canon details about how they first meet come up in DIAG:

BODIE: That's the main thing, staying cool. Saw my medical report: slow heartbeat, slow metabolism. 's gotta be cool. Sneaked a look at yours, though. Very uncool. Hot temperament. Still, a good man. The tops. Worth knowing. You won't fall if they push.

I love that meeting. I like to think of Bodie as 'cool' (I hate that word but it seems to sit well on Bodie) and I like to think of Doyle as volatile, intense, a man who actually reacts to things and shows how he feels. I like angry men and Doyle can get very angry and yet I don't feel he's full of anger but just gets worked up about certain things, enough to try and do something about them, if you like, a constructive kind of anger. I like and respect that, but equally, Bodie's cynical, 'what's the point' kind of attitude really attracts me. I feel their attitudes complement and need each other in order for them to survive as partners and human beings and I feel they totally accept these differences in each other. Sorry..... what was the question?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think this is sort of conflating two things: how they met and what they do or don't know about each other?
Yes, you're right - I'm totally assuming that when they meet it'll somehow be related to them being partnered in CI5 (not necessarily true, they really could have met ages before, even in the course of work), and that there'd be some kind of exchange of information - even if it's done in a very quiet sort of sniffing-around-each-other kind of way... I suppose a related question is how long it would have taken them to get to know each other to a particular level..?

it always seems to be *Bodie's* past which is a bit murky
It does, doesn't it - although in alot of ways I think we know more about him than we do abotu Doyle... We don't know about any of Doyle's previous relationships, I don't think, though we know about Bodie's with Marrika - oh, and the nurse that tried to kill herself over him... and the girl that Krivas killed. We don't know any of Doyle's former colleagues (except Sid Parker and Maurice who are both killed/dead and Kathy Mason who betrayed him) but we know about Krivas and various mercs and Keller... Hmmn, what else? (Though I suppose I'm going a bit off-topic!)

I suppose the classic canon details about how they first meet come up in DIAG
D'you know, I completely forgot about that! I wonder if that means I don't really believe it as their first meeting..? It doesn't make any sense being in Doyle's dreams if it wasn't true though, does it... So they met in a bar somewhere, and Bodie talked about sweating it out and pouring it back in and staying cool and liking Doyle... Actually that's interesting too - Stuart said he'd heard about Doyle too, that he was a good man. I know Bodie says he sneaked a look at Doyle's medical report, but that wouldn't have told him that Bodie was "The tops. Worth knowing. You won't fall if they push." - presumably he must have heard that somewhere, or been asking around... So perhaps they were told that they were to be partnered before they met (not usually how it's portrayed in fic, I don't think, they're usually unaware until they're face to face...)

I love that meeting. I like to think of Bodie as 'cool'...and I like to think of Doyle as volatile
Yeah, that does work for them, doesn't it... I almost think it's not anger at the base of Doyle (though it could be) but perhaps passion for things, expressed in different ways including anger?

Hmmn, the more I think of it, the less I can think of fic that takes that DiaG meeting as canon and expands on it... You'd think that'd be quite a good scene to write from! It's definitely in fics, but... as the canon way they meet...? *brain is a sieve...*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

suppose the classic canon details about how they first meet come up in DIAG
D'you know, I completely forgot about that! I wonder if that means I don't really believe it as their first meeting..? It doesn't make any sense being in Doyle's dreams if it wasn't true though, does it...

Not sure I'm understanding your final point, but as part of a dream sequence (i.e. not real) it might be a representation of how Doyle views their first meeting? His sub-conscious views, type of thing?

I almost think it's not anger at the base of Doyle (though it could be) but perhaps passion for things, expressed in different ways including anger?

I think you're right and that's a better description - 'passion' and maybe intensity?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Not sure I'm understanding your final point
Oh, just that it would be an odd thing for Doyle to dream about if it didn't have any basis in reality... In a way I suppose I've always thought it was more representational, but without thinking about how it could be... So what would Doyle's subconscious views about their first meeting be, from the dream sequence then? That Bodie's cool and expects the same of his partners? That he likes Doyle - or respects him, at least? Or just that Doyle has a good reputation... So then the setting of it might mean that they met in a bar (after a sport of some kind, or am I mixing that up with fic?) or just that was a setting where Doyle felt... comfortable, or related it to Bodie, or... Hmmn!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I suppose a related question is how long it would have taken them to get to know each other to a particular level..?

Maybe it’s just my imagination or what I want to believe but I always get the impression that they’re getting to know each other within their ci5 roles as the series progresses, just as they might have been doing as actors in real life i.e. in the earlier episodes they seem quite new to each other, edgy in a different kind of way and not as warm and affectionate as they are to become later on. Having said that, I don't think we're ever given any hints in canon (apart from the dream scene) on how long they've actually been partners, or how long ci5's been in existence, if we at least knew that it might help. Oh, hang on, doesn't copper doyle mention a new outfit in When The Heat Cools Off? You heard about that new department being formed, CI5? So, if ci5's pretty new then their partnership can't be that old. Hmmm...so what does that tell us? Not a lot but I enjoyed the journey. Sorry, for that *very* long rambling digression.....Your original question 'how long would it have taken them to get to know each other...' I suppose it depends on the work they're involved with e.g. if they were both taken hostage or involved in taking lives then I think it would be a rapid learning curve - the more emotions experienced in a day then the quicker they'd discover each other.

it always seems to be *Bodie's* past which is a bit murky.....
It does, doesn't it - although in alot of ways I think we know more about him than we do abotu Doyle... We don't know about any of Doyle's previous relationships, I don't think, though we know about Bodie's with Marrika - oh, and the nurse that tried to kill herself over him... and the girl that Krivas killed.

Yeah, that's interesting and something else which I've wondered about. Doyle seems to get closer to the women he meets in canon e.g. Ann Holly, Leila from Blind Run, the fiery rich girl in blood sport and yet we hear very little about his involvement with individual women from his past. The opposite seems to be the case with Bodie: as you say we get to know about Marikka, the girl he loved who was killed by Krivas, a nurse in africa who interpreted his friendliness wrongly and the teacher he seems to know as an old pal in The Gun. We see evidence that he’s bedded a couple of women in the episodes but I never get the impression he’s serious about them, whereas Doyle seems to take his women more seriously, at least for the time he’s with them.

Not sure I'm understanding your final point
Oh, just that it would be an odd thing for Doyle to dream about if it didn't have any basis in reality...

Gotcha...I dunno, I think you can dream as much about extraordinary things and events which aren’t connected to your life as things which are (though maybe if examined enough we might find the former *is* rooted in the subconscious in some way....)

In a way I suppose I've always thought it was more representational, but without thinking about how it could be... So what would Doyle's subconscious views about their first meeting be, from the dream sequence then? That Bodie's cool and expects the same of his partners? That he likes Doyle - or respects him, at least? Or just that Doyle has a good reputation... So then the setting of it might mean that they met in a bar (after a sport of some kind, or am I mixing that up with fic?) or just that was a setting where Doyle felt... comfortable, or related it to Bodie, or... Hmmn!

Yup, possibly all those things, or that Doyle wants Bodie to think he’s all those things: cool, likes and respects him and is worrying that he isn't, or worrying about the differences between them, whereas Bodie is more prescient and predicts that the partnership will work because the differences between them are good and will complement each other. I think where Doyle is more of a worrier and tends to see the glass half-empty, Bodie doesn't. Maybe.....

[And apologies for the shameful number of edits.]

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

[And apologies for the shameful number of edits.]
No, my apologies that I was away yesterday - I was actually in London for the day, but managed also to have what I should probably admit was probably a migraine headache rather than just a bad headache, which is still lurking on the edges now (though it's mostly gone, so hello lj... *g*) Anyway - back to more interesting things, if you've not given up on me!

but I always get the impression that they’re getting to know each other within their ci5 roles as the series progresses
Yes, that's what I think too - especially as they drop little explanations in as they go, like Bodie's about being in love with the girl that Krivas killed, and Doyle's about Sid Parker being killed, and... oh, and Doyle's description of his childhood in Mixed Doubles... And I think guys do tend to do that, don't they? Be more casual about getting to know each other, rather than spilling their guts in some big revelation at the start... well, not all guys obviously, but... I can see the lads doing it like that too...

I don't think we're ever given any hints in canon (apart from the dream scene) on how long they've actually been partners
Oh we are in Closer Quarters actually (though we still have to make it up a bit depending on how we calculate the timeline of the eps:
COWLEY: You've never told me about Bodie. I made you a team, what, two years ago?
DOYLE: Two years and three months.

And I think somewhere we get an idea of how long CI5's been going too, but for the life of me I can't think where... or maybe I'm thinking of secondary canon from interviews with Clemens etc, and the backstory he'd made up...

But anyway - by the time of Close Quarters the lads have been partnered for 2 years and 3 months (love that Doyle's so precise! *g*), but there are still quite a few of their life-stories that come out in later eps, so I think you're right about things being revealed gradually.

Doyle seems to get closer to the women he meets in canon... The opposite seems to be the case with Bodie
Ooh, that is interesting - as if Bodie's given up trying to get close to women since he joined CI5 (or met Doyle *g*), but Doyle is still out there... which is why fic that has Doyle straining for a "normal" life resonates with me, I think, until he finally admits to himself that his best life will be through letting himself love Bodie... I think that's why I believe in Redemption, for instance - I can see Doyle trying to take that chance with Sylvie, and I can see it going wrong for him very quickly...

[scherwood]

1) # Because I suck at canon (I can never remember specific stuff), I have to use my gut feeling. I think they both would have been wary of getting a partner, but at the same time I don't think they would have hated it. Bodie because he's worked with partners before and knows the drill, he might not be overly happy but he'll deal with it. And Doyle because of the Met, police officers usually do have a partner or partners they work with. They're both very curious too, we can't forget that... sticking their nose into everything, and I think this partner business would be treated the same way until they knew for sure what they were dealing with. They would probably have tested each other's limits and so on, until they figured they could both do their job together (watching each other's backs and so on).

2) # Because I'm a romantic: On Paper, by Rob
# And this one is a great example of how I think they first acted towards each other: Your Eyes, by PFL
# This also describes it well, the firt bit, about the curious side of them: Vignettes Under Calico Skies, by Joana Dey
# And a little bit of this, and a little bit of that: Easy Stages, by LH

3) # Should those AUs count as "first meetings" for the theme or are they something else entirely?
- AU First Meeting fics?
# Is there AU fic that follows the same pattern as you imagine might have been seen in a CI5-based first meeting?
- Yes.. and I think I mentioned some of them when you asked for Reading Room. *nod, nod*

4) I LOVE 'EM!!! :D \o/
Because I love to see the lads build everything from the beginning. To learn about each other and about themselves. It doesn't have to be sexual in any way... but I still love that first tension between the lads. The "I don't know you, but maybe I like to know you" stuff. *love*

*humming happily*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

It doesn't have to be sexual in any way... but I still love that first tension between the lads. The "I don't know you, but maybe I like to know you" stuff. *love*

That's what I love, too. The unknown quantity, the subtle hints, the what-if's....I think that's what I love about pre-slash, that it allows *our* imagination to run free for a change rather than presenting everything to us on a plate all wrapped up with nothing left to discover.

[scherwood]

that it allows *our* imagination to run free for a change

- I second this. ;D *nod, nod*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

(Sorry I was away yesterday - partly I was away from my computer, but when I got back I had a bad bad bad headache and so couldn't lj...)

1) Hmmn, what makes you think they would have been wary of having a partner? Even though, as you say, they've both worked with partners before? Wouldn't it just be part of the job, in that case?

2) Ah, you are a romantic... *g* I don't remember the other stories, I shall have to go and re/read them!

3) - Yes.. and I think I mentioned some of them when you asked for Reading Room. *nod, nod*
Lol - I still can't read that many so quickly, or remember them without doing research into the old post! Sounds like there's more than one though - do they all follow the same lines?

4) Yes! I like that "first tension" between them too - I reckon there is a kind of pull between them though, not necessarily sexual, but that click that happens sometimes between people, and is wonderful... *g*

[scherwood]

(no worries~ *hugs*)

1) # Hmmn, what makes you think they would have been wary of having a partner? Even though, as you say, they've both worked with partners before? Wouldn't it just be part of the job, in that case?
- I don't know why I think that, but they might be.. you never know. *dun, dun, dun* *g* Because of Sid's death and Bodie may have lost a lot of friends in the jungle, Paras and SAS, but I don't know. *shrug* Part of the job, sure, but can you really truly disconnect from your work, I don't think so... no one are that cold, unless they are. *g*

2) # Ah, you are a romantic... *g* I don't remember the other stories, I shall have to go and re/read them!
- Yes, I am. Hard to guess eh? *g* Have fun reading~ :)

3) # - Yes.. and I think I mentioned some of them when you asked for Reading Room. *nod, nod*
Lol - I still can't read that many so quickly, or remember them without doing research into the old post! Sounds like there's more than one though - do they all follow the same lines?
- There're more than one, yes. And I guess they do follow the same line, kinda. :) But I don't remember them all either. *g*

4) # Yes! I like that "first tension" between them too - I reckon there is a kind of pull between them though, not necessarily sexual, but that click that happens sometimes between people, and is wonderful... *g*
- Yes, that click is EVERYTHING~~~~!!! *happy fangirl* *love*

[potztausend.livejournal.com]

I read first-meeting-stories, but they are not my favourites. Instead I like to read about the development from friendship to love, the unsureness, the hesitation, the fear to expand limits, to destroy everything... Such a well written story is a kind of flowing, weightless, breathless, doesn't matter if it is pre-slash or slash.

Nevertheless I read Sebastian's story "Hyperion to a Satyr" again yesterday and I still liked it... let's celebrate my inconsistency *g*.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Instead I like to read about the development from friendship to love
I think that's my favourite part too. I like first-meeting stories if there's that click of connection between them that tells us they're going to go from being strangers to lovers, but it really is the slashy relationship I want between them... in Hyperion to a Satyr I feel like I get both, even though it's first meeting it's really about their slide into adoring each other... *sighs happily*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I hate migraines and I hope your migraine is now very much in the background if not completely gone.

ut I always get the impression that they’re getting to know each other within their ci5 roles as the series progresses......
Yes, that's what I think too - especially as they drop little explanations in as they go, like Bodie's about being in love with the girl that Krivas killed, and Doyle's about Sid Parker being killed, and... oh, and Doyle's description of his childhood in Mixed Doubles...

That's an interesting point, they do, don't they, but I think I was trying to say something else and I wish I could express myself better. What I was trying to say very badly is that I wonder if their onscreen personas mirrored (or was a result of) their developing offscreen relationship? I might have been too influenced by the rumours and inaccurate articles that I've come across but they seem to ease up in canon as they might have in real life i.e. become easier, more affectionate and friendlier with each other.

I don't think we're ever given any hints in canon (apart from the dream scene) on how long they've actually been partners
Oh we are in Closer Quarters actually (though we still have to make it up a bit depending on how we calculate the timeline of the eps:
COWLEY: You've never told me about Bodie. I made you a team, what, two years ago?
DOYLE: Two years and three months.

Oh, well remembered! I was almost going to say that I'd forgotten that scene but I'm not sure I ever knew it because I'm so busy looking at *them* rather than listening to the dialogue (as I'm discovering with ProsWatch), though I do seem to remember that kind of conversation going on in the car between Doyle and Cowley when Cowley's contrasting them as 'chalk and cheese' or the bisto kids or something?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wonder if their onscreen personas mirrored (or was a result of) their developing offscreen relationship?
Oh, I'd really like to think that - and how far it might have developed! They do seem to have become quite close (what with jamming in LC's studio, and they spoke on the phone according to that interview with MS and all) I've always wondered if I can see them being prickly to each other on ODWNT, but it's quite hard to see through the posh accents and I'm-tough-I-am to some extent... though maybe that's all part of it!

hough I do seem to remember that kind of conversation going on in the car between Doyle and Cowley when Cowley's contrasting them as 'chalk and cheese' or the bisto kids or something?
Yes, that's the one:
COWLEY: You've never told me about Bodie. I made you a team, what, two years ago?
DOYLE: Two years and three months.
COWLEY: That's long enough.
DOYLE: Long enough for what?
COWLEY: For him to get up your nose, irritate you.
DOYLE: Oh, he does that, all right. Every day, he does that.
COWLEY: Chalk and cheese, eh?
DOYLE: Yeah.
COWLEY: Ah, it's worked well, though.
DOYLE: Yeah, I've watched his back, he's watched mine. We're both still alive. At least, this morning, we were both still alive.
COWLEY: Aye. Aye. Bodie gets up my nose, too, and so do you! But I want you both to stay alive.

Actually that makes me wonder about Doyle and Cowley too - Cowley starts off by saying "You've never told me about Bodie", as if it was a long-standing question of some kind...