Poorly Lads - but not S&H-type Poorly...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Thanks everyone who's been adding to the Poorly Lads Storylist - amongst other things I've added a new category (Amnesia - and as usual I know there are more amnesia fics out there than are on the list so far... *g*) and changed "Non-serious injury" to "Non-serious injury, a selection of...", defined as focus on the injury in the story, because otherwise half the Pros stories ever written would be in that category! *g* But the reason I'm popping in again...

One of the things that set me off creating the storylist was a comment over at prosfinder that there seemed to be relatively few stories in Pros where the lads are very seriously injured or chronically ill (for example, with cancer) compared to similar stories in Starsky and Hutch fandom in particular, and in the course of creating the lists, gideonbd77 has now said something similar:

I find it rather curious that there are so few Pros stories about serious/chronic illness in a fandom with so many H/C plots. Maybe Pros fans prefer H/C stories where the lads recover fully and have a happy ending?

I've got to admit that I'm not madly keen on reading chronic-illness stories myself, so if I saw a story was going to be about cancer or AIDs (for example) then I'd probably hesitate before diving in - and I might only do that if it was one of my favourite authors even. I don't actually mind death stories, but I do find chronic illness rather depressing - whilst death can be redeemed by the idea that they'll be reunited in the afterlife/next world/insert belief here, and in theory that would include death through chronic illness, there's just something about the latter that I find less... readable I guess. Maybe in hearing other people's thoughts I'll be able to figure out what/why that is! Perhaps it just comes down to the fact that I love the romance of stories (not soppy-kissy romance, but yearning-and-then-requited romance) and there's not much romantic yearning to be had in chronic disease...

I dunno - what d'you think? And is it true that there are more of these kinds of stories in S&H (or other fandoms)? And if so, I wonder why? As Gideon suggested, are we just more prone to happy endings? (Not in my case particularly, it's the middle I'm turned on or off by!) Hmmn...

Comments

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

There's not a whole lot of those types of stories in any of my fandoms (Pros, UNCLE, K/S,) so I guess I never thought to question why. *g* But thinking about it, I think it's as if a death is more, I don't know, noble? for having come from their job or even an accident. It's certainly less messy emotionally, since the actual physical trauma is of short duration., relatively speaking.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think it's as if a death is more, I don't know, noble? for having come from their job or even an accident. It's certainly less messy emotionally, since the actual physical trauma is of short duration., relatively speaking.
Yeah - I think that's perhaps partly what I mean by "romantic" too... an injury incurred in the line of duty does have a nobility about it, whereas cancer that any of us could get reduces the lads even further to being the same as any of us - so maybe it's to do with hero-ising our lads too? We want them to be a bit above our lives... which comes into Jojo's answer down below actually - if they can get something as "mundane" as cancer then we're no longer escaping by reading about them...

Maybe it's something to do with turning the long-term duration of it into a story too - chronic illness seems often to be a battle to retain the little dignities over a long period of time, and to write a story where they're suffering those indignities for a long time... hmmn, I'm back to wanting them to be above some things, aren't I!

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

Well I must admit to not having been drawn to chronic illness stories much in any fandom, despite my partiality to h/c in general. I dunno, while I realise that gunshot wounds or the effects of torture or whatever are very dreadful, they are, thank gawd, outside my sphere of personal experience (myself or those close to me). Chronic illness otoh isn’t and I can find it too close to the bone to read fanfic about it - with characters I love suffering terminal illness. I fully get why people write/read those stories - the cathartic element etc etc and the possibility for much angst and comfort - but argh it can undermine the joy of escapism sometimes. I would probably read such a story by a very favourite writer though and I’d be daft to say I’d never write chronic illness myself because... I’m daft :D

As to why there’s less in Pros than S&H... ooh I don’t know. I haven’t read widely in S&H for a while, and when I did the h/c in general was very prevalent (or I sought out such stories, hard to tell). And then chronic illness is handled differently in the old west fandoms - I must say I’ve only really come across it in the modern AU version of Mag7 and that I’d avoid for the above reasons. I might read it in the old west though - because that would be years and years outside of my experience sphere. Does that make sense? And good question!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ooh, good thoughts... I love h/c in general too, but... yeah, I suppose I do read Prosfic for an escape on some level too - I don't want to go too far away, I like my lads realistic above all, but whilst the odds that anyone I know will be shot/tortured/raped etc is fairly low, I do know people suffering from chronic illness, so reading about it in fiction would be close to the bone... And I wouldn't pic up a published book about it either, or a magazine article, or watch one of these endless reality shows/documentaries about it either...

Do you remember much chronic illness h/c in S&H, or was it more general h/c, like in Pros?

[scherwood]

I don't really read it in any fandom, because I just get too depressed... like for real. I can feel bad about it for days afterwards. I don't need fanfic like that. *shivers*

I know death will happen to us all in the end, but I think death is more acceptable to me. I mean, we're all going to die, but I hope to the higher powers that no one gets permanetly ill or injured in any way.

It doesn't matter how good the story is, or what author, because it got more to do with the hoplessness of the situation most of the time, and how the boys fight against something they can't win. Slowly dragging it out. <-- slowly losing their hope and even though love is stil there it's just too sad. *sniff*

I prefere a quick/slow ending in death rather than a slow ending of illness or injury............

And oh, I forgot to say, I hate unhappy endings!! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

the hoplessness of the situation
Yes, that's what I'm not keen on either - although I don't mind a story where one of the lads die, when there's nothing that they can even really fight against it doesn't seem fair... which reminds me that life isn't fair... which is not why I read stories in the first place!

[scherwood]

*nod, nod*
Hmm, yeah I guess.. death stories are kind of different, but I still don't like 'em. *g*

which reminds me that life isn't fair... which is not why I read stories in the first place!
- Right. I read to get away from my life, not to get hit on the head everytime I do pick up a fanfic/book/whatever. ;D

[miwahni.livejournal.com]

IDK... admittedly I've not read heavily in S/H for quite a few years now but there's only one chronic illness/cancer story that sticks in my mind - the incredible 1197k Crab Sandwiches by Dawnwind, which kept me up all night reading.
Still, the tv series ended with Starsky recovering in hospital after being shot on the job, and as a result there are a lot of "Starsky doesn't recover fully and is pensioned out" stories, much more than you find in Pros where Ray is seen running around London in the next ep after his shooting! *g*
But that's not what you were asking :) Death caused by the job is not only more noble, as postulated above, but also more likely, so I guess authors are more likely to write those stories. And I don't want to read about Bodie or Doyle losing a leg etc to cancer, thanks, or even being diagnosed with HIV. I want my heroes reasonably whole and hearty, or at least well enough to dive under the covers together. Perhaps most Pros authors see it the same way.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Interesting to know about the final S&H ep - I never watched it all through, though I loved it as a kid... I should re-phrase that, I don't remember watching the series to the end... *g* And yeah, I suppose we have canon that Doyle recovered from his shooting, so yeay - that's something I like about Pros actually, and I think especially lends to fic, that stories were often not "wrapped up", just as they aren't in real life - as if the lads are really out there, rather than being in a fairy-tale-ending-type-story, if you see what I mean (not that being pensioned off, for example, is a fairy-tale ending! *g*) But back to the topic... *g*

Death caused by the job is not only more noble, as postulated above, but also more likely, so I guess authors are more likely to write those stories.
That's a good point too - in B/D's world they're more likely to be shot than contract cancer, whereas in our world we're probably more likely to do the former - but it's B/D's world I want to read about, at the end of the day...

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

My tastes in reading are changing all the time, but I've never actively sought out a 'chronic illness' fic, because I usually read fanfic to escape from RL for a while or I want it to entertain me. I'm happy to be educated or start questioning the status quo at the same time, though, so I dunno... I suppose it's because 'chronic illness' sounds depressing that it puts me off reading that kind of fanfic. I wouldn't write it because it would need so much research to get it right.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

There are definitely some writers who've done a great job with similar themes - like Helen Raven's Heat-trace for instance, which deals with serious depression and emotional disturbance - but the ones I can think of have at least a grain of hope all the way through... And even death stories such as the one where Bodie's too injured to be saved, so Doyle pulls Cowley from the building and goes back to be with Bodie... *sniffs sadly* - but even there there's a kind of hope that they're together... I don't think you can be with so many chronic illnesses...

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

There's one absolute gem, Hold Till the End by msmoat, that works the only way I think I could stand in this fandom (sorry, can't remember where it's posted at the moment - could be just her lj???) - and it's not the lads themselves who are ill. It's short and heartbreaking and well worth reading - especially from her.

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

oh yes, I know the story you mean - heartbreaking indeed - a topic much too close for comfort but one I read (and am very glad I read) because of the writer.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I don't remember reading that one - if you remember where it is...? *g* But then you say it's not the lads who are ill, so I think that's a bit different, too... I wouldn't mind reading so much about other people in the story who are ill - unless the focus was entirely on them rather than on B/D, but that's cos it's B/D I want to read about... *g*

[gideonbd77.livejournal.com]

I think it's really interesting that people are reading Pros fanfiction to 'escape'. From the comments so far, I guess I'm in a small minority that doesn't mind reading stories that are very realistic and don't necessarily have a happy ending.

Having said that though, if I could choose between a happy ending and a sad one, I'd pick the former any day. *grin* Of course, when reading someone else's story, it's the author's choice of whichever ending they want for their story and so, what is most important to me is how the author handles the storyline. If the author does it well, I can read pretty much anything, including death fics or really dark fics.

Regarding fics about serious chronic illness, my issue with them is the lack of suspense. Their predictability, to be more exact. Like cancer, for example ... say there's a Pros story where Doyle gets cancer. There are only two ways it can go: Either Doyle's cancer goes into remission, or he dies. No matter how long an author drags that story, sooner or later you'll know which way the story goes, and for me, that takes out a lot of the fun of reading. It can even become annoying to me if the story becomes nothing more than a 'let's torture Bodie and Doyle with physical and emotional pain until Doyle dies' exercise.

There's no payoff in a story like that, no comfort in the hurt/comfort equation ... and isn't hurt/comfort ultimately much more about the comfort in the end? That payoff of the lads comforting and loving each other after the time of suffering has ended makes that suffering worthwhile, so to speak.

(Coincidentally, I'd planned to write a Pros story featuring one of the lads chronically falling ill, so this post and its comments have been helpful!)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm in a small minority that doesn't mind reading stories that are very realistic and don't necessarily have a happy ending.
Hmmn - I'm not so sure about that. I absolutely don't mind reading stories that are very realistic and don't necessarily have a happy ending - in fact I always feel as if I'm in a minority when I say that! *g* - but somehow chronic illness stories fall into something other than that, for me... You can have realism and a sad ending without having hopelessness and despair, I think...

Interesting point about lack of suspense though, and one I'm definitely identifying with - a chronic illness story is predictable to a large extent, if not in the actual plot then in the emotional impact of the story. I think we know that there's going to be so much more pain and indignity and suffering before we get to the end, even if the author focusses on more positive moments in the patient's experience... As you say, no "pay off" - we're going to go through all the agony and the suffering isn't "worthwhile"... Whereas somehow the agony of being shot or tortured or even raped can be turned into something "worthwhile" at the end... I think killedmedead's point is good here - chronic illness isn't something the lads can fight against, and maybe it's not something they can learn much from either: stoicism, patience, acceptance - not very positive or hopeful lessons...

I think maybe it comes back to my question/post about enjoying the journey or the ending most as well - if the journey is going to be nothing but unpleasant, then the ending is almost irrelevant... a good author can possibly make the most unpleasant journey worth experiencing, but I think they have to be good to do it... *g*

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm in a small minority that doesn't mind reading stories that are very realistic and don't necessarily have a happy ending.

like BSL I tend to think it's not such a small minority, actually :D Whatever the subject a story's got to feel "realistic" up to a point, which is probably why I have limited tolerance for elves and wings and whatknot... (which may be a lack of imagination on my part more than anything *g*) Aaand I don't have a problem with unhappy endings, whether I knew they were coming or not, as long as the emotional pay-off from it feels satisfying (which sounds as if it ought not to make sense but maybe you know what I mean?). I'd get worried if I wanted stories like that too much though *g*

Oooh and is intrigued that you're planning a chronic illness fic :D

[scherwood]

_{Regarding fics about serious chronic illness, my issue with them is the lack of suspense. Their predictability, to be more exact. Like cancer, for example ... say there's a Pros story where Doyle gets cancer. There are only two ways it can go: Either Doyle's cancer goes into remission, or he dies. No matter how long an author drags that story, sooner or later you'll know which way the story goes, and for me, that takes out a lot of the fun of reading. It can even become annoying to me if the story becomes nothing more than a 'let's torture Bodie and Doyle with physical and emotional pain until Doyle dies' exercise.}

Hadn't thought about this, but I agree. *nod, nod*

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I avoid permanent disability stories although there was one in TS that I thought was good. But in three fandoms and a few minor ones, I've never found another one that I liked. It's far too depressing.

The few terminal illness stories I've accidentally started I dropped immediately. Nope, not for me. And the one AIDS story in Pros I started to read from a 2 dollar zine sucked big time. The writing was awful and Doyle whined and cried constantly and that was only in the first few pages. Not because he was sick, mind, he was just a wimp. Hated it. But I admit years ago I was asked to contribute to a special zine whose proceeds were for an AIDS foundation and I did write the Sentinel AIDS story for the project. I had to deliberate for a while but in the end I agreed. It wasn't nearly as painful as the only death story I'd written. I tried to be realistic so there was no miraculous cure, but it was a very hopeful and positive ending. So... there ya go.

I don't do death stories either because I read for pleasure and don't find my boys dead a pleasurable experience. Even those "alive together in Heaven" stories don't work for me no matter how well crafted. Depressing isn't my chosen place for entertainment. But then I don't do those types of movies either. I want to be happy! Life has enough junk to overcome, worry about, cry over. My fandom life needs to be fun!

There are tons of those types of stories in other fandoms: maiming, dismemberment, death, AIDS, cancer, etc etc etc... Rape, abuse, you name it. Heck, in TS there even a few crucifixion stories. Nothing like Blair nailed to the cross and then castrated to make you want to read, eh?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn, I suppose I could perhaps read a permanent disability story (and I probably have, though I can't think of any now - they're in list above, though! *g*), but for me that's different to a chronic illness story, somehow... maybe it's the hope thing, as I said above - the one thing I do generally want in my stories is hope, and I can even get that from death stories, but not so much from the indignities of chronic illness...

Eep for the AIDS story - the examples I've read in Pros have been alot like that too, although I think alot of the "worse" (if I'm allowed to say that) Prosfic is also like that, and as you say it's got nothing to do with the plot or theme!

Eep for the Blair-crucified story too! Was it written by someone religious perhaps, who saw it as... actually maybe not, from the next part of your description! It's odd, isn't it - some stories can put the lads through all kinds of awful things, and yet the story still somehow feels as though it's ended well. Other authors can put the lads through the same or even lesser situations, and yet lack the feeling that makes sense of the awfulness... Hmmmn, maybe that's part of it for me - making sense of the awful things, and I'm not sure there is any "sense" to something like cancer...

[scherwood]

Nothing like Blair nailed to the cross and then castrated to make you want to read, eh?

Guh. I'm glad I haven't stumbled over stories like that in TS. *shivers*

[loyseofverlaine.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of h/c in general, so my views are probably biased. And over-simplifications.

I think that lengthy, detailed chronic injury or illness fics require the author to have a somewhat idealized view of the guys as better, braver, redeemed by suffering. That's difficult to do in Pros, where Bodie and Doyle make no secret of being hard-ass bastards who are capable of serious acts of violence without remorse. Starsky and Hutch, by comparison, are - softer, for lack of a better word. It's the difference in cultural mind-set between England and the US at the time, in which the US still wanted to idealise their heroes. We also have canon in Starsky and Hutch, in several episodes, of the guys taking care of each other in injury or illness. I don't believe we ever see Bodie and Doyle offer each other an aspirin

Personally, I think if Bodie were diagnosed with cancer he'd go off quietly somewhere and shoot himself, while Doyle would be one of those patients from hell who'd drive everybody nuts.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

redeemed by suffering
Yes, I think you might be right about this - and that's just not who the lads are...

Hmmn - I think I can see Doyle either turning completely to vegetarianism and holistic foods etc in a super-effort to beat it (cos we have hints that he believes in the power of good food and vitamins etc in the eps) or else he'd go all to pieces and just be angry with the world about it - maybe take to drink or something like that and just give up... (Either of which would be interesting in a fic - except that I'd need him to recover to make it worthwhile!). Would Bodie go off and shoot himself... hmmn... or maybe he'd throw himself into some really dangerous occupation - a merc job maybe, but for the "goodies" - where he'd die in the line of duty? A suicide job - go out with a bang...

Tomorrow I'm posting a cheerful Pros post! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

As far as I'm concerned, people can comment in two years time and I'll still be interested in hearing what they have to say about things, so no worries at all! *g*