CI5 hq

Hee - but you must admit it was quite amusing suffering... and I loved Doyle's absolute empathy and understanding... cos they know each other... *g*

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scherwood

yeah, I was laughing all the time... *evil grin* *g*

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It was really funny, very amusing - and the boy was absolutely awful *g*. I just have one small criticism - it's not even pre-slash. It sure could be possible, when the boy is looking somewhere else... or the boy could be blindfolded *g*.

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constant-muse.livejournal.com

eep! quite! I didn't expect gen. Still as with all the best stories it didn't stop it being hugely enjoyable and the lads being the lads and very in tune with each other - Doyle reading Bodie, his anger, his humour, and vice versa..

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Lol - I didn't even think of it being either gen or slash to be honest, cos it wasn't something that was relevant to the story, which I found enjoyable in its own right. But then, as I said below (sorry, getting my comment-boxes mixed up!) I know Rebel as a Pros slash writer, so it's in my head that of course in this story the lads are together, it just isn't something that needs to be mentioned... and as you say, she writes the lads as so in tune anyway, that it almost seems a given that they're slashed to me!

It's interesting - I wonder how much our reading is influenced by actually knowing who the author is, and what they think/believe etc...

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Rebelcat's "The Natural Order Of Things" - ah, wonderful :)

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Interestingly enough, Rebel's stories are some that I read as pre-slash the whole time - it might be because I know that Rebel does write slash, and has the lads in mind as slashed in general. As long as I know the author is thinking that they might be in a relationship - it's just not what this particular story is about - then I don't mind as much...

So out of curiousity - what would make a story "pre-slash" for you, then?

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Sorry for my late answer - I was on holiday for some days.

What makes a story pre-slash? An interesting *and* difficult question. Being in tune is not enough for a pre-slash-story. I know, what kind of stories I don't like much as pre-slash: one of them is seriously injured, the other one sits at his bed in the hospital and recognizes he loves his friend. The patient wakes up and they talk to each other about their love. Many of these stories are just average.

Pre-slash has a sort of floating atmosphere, thoughts which aren't spoken out loud, no describing to death, but written in a way, that I can feel it, know it. I can feel love in such a story, when they don't talk about love, I can feel tenderness and deep emotions. It's sooo difficult to explain it.
For example the short story "One Can Only See" by LaceyMcBain, it says "Pairing: None", and should be gen. But it isn't, it's pre-slash in the second half, in a wonderful way. Or "Recovering" by halotolerant - strictly speaking it is no pre-slash, it's even the situation with one of them in hospital and the other one visiting *g* - but it shows what I mean. - Ah, and I remember the reccing of "Join the queue" by Lizzie - it's a sweet sort of pre-slash.

Talking about the first two stories... is there anyone who wants to rec a story next Thursday? I think, both stories are worth reccing, and I could do one of them next week or some other week.

Edit: some hours later - I thought about my answer and recognized not only "Recovering" has the hospital/visit scene, but "One can only see" too, at least a little bit *scratches her head*. My comment about so many average stories in hospital seems somehow a little bit implausible. Maybe you understand if you know the stories. I don't remember other pre-slash stories... ah, perhaps "Festival of Lights" by Dorinda, a really good written story - but the other two are more touching, at least for me.

Edited Date: 2010-09-18 06:53 pm (UTC)

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Hello - hope you had a brilliant time! *g*

Interesting thoughts too and they make me want to ask how you define a slash story, in fact! To me, the lad declaring their love to each other, even in a bad hospital talk-y scene, makes a story slash because the lads are together in a romantic relationship. They might be bad slash stories (your example about the hospital/visit scene makes total sense to me, and I wince at that sort of thing when I read it!) but they're still slash stories - never mind pre-slash.

Same with Lizzie's "Join the Queue", to me it's all about how much Bodie loves Doyle because he's even prepared to go to the Post Office on Christmas Eve for him - it's a slash story, cos the lads are in love, even though we don't see it explicitly and we only see it from one point of view.

Same with "One Can Only See" - in that last scene, where Bodie leans down so closely to Doyle, so that Dark hair tickles Doyle's face, and he wrinkles his nose, but doesn't really want Bodie to go anywhere. If he could lift his hand, he would stroke Bodie's hair, that speaks to me absolutely of them being in love, and so it's a slash story (again, even though there's nothing explicitly sexual.)

I don't remember Halo's story - I'll have to re-read that one!

"Pre-slash" to me is where the lads are close to each other, but aren't at the stage of realising that they should be together, or at the stage of expressing it in any way. A "slash" story, to me, is where they're somehow seen to be overtly expressing their feelings for each other.

So... what do you need for a story to be "slash" for you, then? It sounds like you want more than my definitions! Explicit sexual actions, maybe? Or...?

ETA - Oh, and I haven't checked whether anyone else wants to do something, but yes do rec a story for next Thursday, that'd be fab! If you let people know you're going to, and what it'll be, then if someone else did have plans they'd surely speak up!

Edited Date: 2010-09-18 07:05 pm (UTC)

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Oh yes, it was wonderful - at least since I took a photo of the "Sunshine Store" - it's in my journal *g*.

Hm - I think it is slash, when they have sex with one another or had it or plan it. The sex can be a minor point in the story, but there has to be a reference to a relationship or affair or a one night stand (arghh - i just looked up the expression "One Night Stand" because I didn't remember if it is the same in english and german, and the translation is... "One Night Stand" *g*).

The lads are already "close together" in every gen story, they are best friends, I would describe it as a brotherly love. So every gen story ist pre-slash?

"Join the Queue" - hm, I understand your point of slash-view, they are in the beginning of a relationship, they both know it and talk about it in a careful way.
"One can only see" - no talking about it, Doyle has no thoughts about it. It's all feelings without being conscious about it.

Do you have any examples for a story which is pre-slash for you?

I will announce my Thursday-rec on Tuesday, it probably will be "Recovering"...

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I think it is slash, when they have sex with one another or had it or plan it...but there has to be a reference to a relationship or affair or a one night stand
Okay, I can kind of go with the second half of your definition - some kind of reference to one of those things. But how explicit does that reference have to be? For example, in One Can Only See I don't think Bodie would act as he does unless he wanted that kind of relationship, and I don't think Doyle would be as accepting and understanding of Bodie's affectionate action unless he wanted a relationship - whether or not they've admitted it out loud yet. So to me that's a reference to a relationship/affair...

Scissors (http://members.shaw.ca/LRHBalzer/stories/scissors.html) by L.R.H. Balzer is a story that I probably see as "pre-slash". They're certainly not in a relationship, but they seem to be soooo close to it that I have a feeling that the story after this will be the one... *g*

It's funny, alot of stories that the Circuit Archivist has labelled "none" as the slash pairing are obviously slash to me - but then I think it's only her definition which she uses to define a story, unless the author's specifically given her the pairing. I know she gives her own "ratings" though, because I've never (and will never!) "rated" any of my stories - yet I realised that someone at Circuit has given them a "rating"! So... even what we're told might not be true for all of us anyway - even for the authors!

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Hm. The story by LHR isn't complete... the last line I am able to read is "Don't bloody well tell me what to do," came the acrid response, Do". It's the situation when Doyle wipes his face with the towel, and they are still in the loo. Your link is the same as the link in ci5hq - http://members.shaw.ca/LRHBalzer/stories/scissors.html -, and I don't understand it.

I remember reading the story some months ago, and now, since you see it as pre-slash, I want to read it again :).

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Oh that's weird - I just tried the link and the story's definitely all there for me, right down to the ending (which is much further on than you've mentioned above!). Maybe the page didn't load fully for you? Maybe clear your cache and try again?

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Oh *clears her throat* It seems to help, I could read the whole story. And yes - it's pre-slash. This tender hugging and holding in the loo, Bodie kissing Doyle's curls, the scene on the sofa, Bodie way of cutting Doyle's hair with the scissors: it is love, not a close friendship... Some days or weeks later, when Doyle is able to move without pain and isn't hurting so much any more, he will teach Bodie very clearly *g*.

When I see a story "gen" rated, I normally wouldn't read it (it's slash and pre-slash for me), so I agree to you that rating can be a problem. I think many of the gen-stories are eventually pre-slash.

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constant-muse.livejournal.com

I'd never choose a Pros fic with children in for choice, even though I can completely go along with how Bodie is notoriously 'good with children' in fanon. I liked the opening in fact - Bodie had never met a child he didn't like, until...

I liked Rebelcat's infusion of Canadian local colour too.

For me the best bit was the car chase - wonderful description of action and the lads working so well together, Bodie working one-handed with R/T and gun. Compact but vivid action scenes like that must be very difficult to write.

But Rebelcat is *good* at vivid, and lads in character.

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I think because I know that Rebel wrote slash as well, in my head this story categorised itself as "a story where slash wasn't relevant" - not a "gen" story as such, just one where it didn't come up. But of course that's all about me knowing the author rather than anything else... *g*

I didn't know that Bodie was "notoriously good with children" in fanon actually - he's good with them in canon, to be fair, but there's not huge numbers of stories about him and kids, I don't think? Are you thinking of anything in particular? You've got me all wondering now... *g* My favourite is probably him as a kid (Ellis Ward), I have to say... But then I tend to avoid fic that gets too soppy for me, and fic where the lads have to deal with children often seems to fall that side of my reading tastes... I have to admit I was wary when I first read this one (I betad it), but Rebel did a great job!

The car chase was fun, and as you say can be hard to write well - I was definitely sorry when Rebel stopped writing Pros!

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constant-muse.livejournal.com

"not a "gen" story as such, just one where it didn't come up."

It's the references at the beginning and end to Doyle feeling hard-done-to because he wanted to be 'with his girl' that evening, because he feels he's due some TLC. The 'girl' doesn't even have a name, let alone a character, so she doesn't impinge at all on the story, but still it's the explicit ref to the lads enjoying recreational girlfriends that stops it being slash.

But that is purely academic because as you say romantic relationships per se don't come up in this story - no chance!

Bodie and children in canon? "You'll Be Alright" is the only one I can think of, and he is good with the small boys there. But it's Doyle who kicks a football in the street.
Re fanon I don't have a lot of examples. You're right I don't think there can be many fics with children (mercifully).

He briefly does a great job of entertaining some small boys in "Lovesome Thing", which is what got me thinking along those lines even before I'd read "Tommy". Oh and one first-time where the lads go to a Doyle family wedding and Bodie plays with the children before later bonding with the menfolk. Both of these scenarios involve Doyle (and the reader) admiring Bodie's rapport with children as yet another lovable facet of his character.
I bet there are numerous examples in fic of such incidental Bodie-children scenes.
In 'Tick Tock' by Josey, I seem to recall he doesn't have much of a rapport, true.

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but still it's the explicit ref to the lads enjoying recreational girlfriends that stops it being slash.
The definition of "slash" turns out to be so complicated - see, I absolutely see slash in the episodes, even though they have "recreational girlfriends" (as opposed to "work girlfriends"? *g*) And I've written what I consider slash stories where the lads have "girlfriends" and I've read lots like that too, so... to me them having girlfriends doesn't preclude a story from being "slash" - the slash to me is about what's happening between the lads, and their relationship with each other rather than anyone else.

It was You'll Be Alright that I was thinking of - he's good with the class he teaches, and then he's good when he walks the two lads home. Doyle plays football in the street with kids, and the kids in Takeaway seem pleased to see him, but I don't think we really see him interacting with kids as much as we see Bodie doing so - not really interacting!

I don't remember the small boys in Lovesome Thing... Now that you've said it though, I do remember him reading to a small girl in Larton, and Doyle waking and affectionately watching him... So yeah, maybe Bodie is "notoriously good" with kids in fanon as well! *g*

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Little Tommy was certainly a little monster*g*. I enjoyed this story a lot, it was amusing with good, believable dialogue and action. I particularly liked Doyle's efforts at being the "cool-headed one for a change", trying desperately to deal with both Tommy and Bodie's antics.

A fun story that had me smiling and feeling immense sympathy for Bodie's hurts but laughing at the same time:) Thanks for the rec.

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That's almost exactly how I felt about it - it's a fun story! And good point about Doyle being the "cool-headed one for a change" - it's funny cos he often is in canon too, but in Prosfic - not so much... *g*

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Yeah, Bodie is almost always the cool headed one is Prosfic, the one that heads off Doyle's fits of temper. But there are quite a few times in canon that Bodie loses it and acts irrationally, and gets chastised by Cowley, while Doyle is the steady one. Maybe it has something to do with Bodie being perceived as the strong, silent type? Dunno!

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I wonder if it might be to do with the way they each lose their temper, and the reasons? Doyle seems to sort of build up and snap suddenly, after being in control for a long time (he's obviously angry, but is in control and then snap, he attacks) whereas we tend to see Bodie's temper grow and then snap all in one session - if that makes any sense at all... Maybe Doyle lulls us into a sense of false security by seeming to angry but in control for a long time, so we think he's safe, but then he's suddenly, often violently, not - and he attacks physically then too. But we see Bodie's build-up and snap all at the same time, so we know what's happening, it's more straightforward?

I'm thinking of Bodie's temper showing to Cowley in DiaG and... oh, there's another ep where they're discussing what's happened to Doyle (maybe Slush Fund?) and Bodie finally shouts at Cowley - we see his temper rising and then it's over.

Whereas we saw Doyle simmering over Benny, and sort of upset when he was talking to Ann etc, but it wasn't until he tracked down Tony that he snapped, and then he nearly pushed him over the wall. Same thing-ish later in Involvement - he erupts in violence...

Hmmn, maybe I'm making it more complicated than it is - when Bodie loses his temper he doesn't often physically attack, I don't think? He slammed the rifle at Doyle at the end of Fall Girl, but he didn't punch him - he seemed more in control of himself, whereas there is an uncontrolled wildness about Doyle at times... But then at other times Doyle is very controlled in how he reacts to things - as in Fugitive, when Bodie's kidnapped...

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You could be right that it’s the way they display or lose their tempers. Doyle often seems to be on a slow simmer until a final, usually violent, eruption. Whereas Bodie always seems to be in control until suddenly, for whatever reason, he lashes out - usually verbally. And often Bodie is the one to pull Doyle back from outright violence - I think Stakeout is a great example of that, although he does let Doyle get his revenge later!

I think if you consider it they both have a certain flash point and with Bodie it takes something more personal to set it off (like danger/worry for his partner or someone he cares about) and he’s the type that kind of holds his anger in until that flash point occurs - and because of that he might be the one to cause more mayhem if he does lose it. Whereas Doyle lets the anger show and you can see it burn at him so that you know it’s probably going to erupt – which gives Bodie the chance to pull him back.

They are both complex characters and I suppose too, different people see them in different ways. And that's what makes it so much fun and so interesting to play with them:)

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Hmmn - maybe it's that Bodie loses his temper more when Doyle isn't there, so Doyle doesn't have a chance to stop him... In fact one glance at Doyle in Man Without a Past stops Bodie pushing it with Cowley - but then when he's on his own chasing whatsisname his temper gets the better of him... Whereas when Doyle loses his temper it's when Bodie isaround to save things from going too wrong... Ooh, this is all very interesting! So Doyle is a calming influence on Bodie, and Bodie's absence means that Doyle holds things in... whereas he feels safe to let them go when Bodie's around, cos Bodie can defuse it...

You're right, there are so many cool ways to read their characters - hurrah for Prosfic! *g*

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