The Bisto Kids... two boys, or a boy and a girl?

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm new and I'm jumping in with a discussion topic right off the start. *waves*

Here's the thing. I always thought the Bisto kids were brother and sister. However, a British friend of mine believes they were both boys - two little street urchins.

I went off and googled images of the Bisto kids and found these original ads, which are pretty ambiguous if you accept that little boys did once upon a time wear tights and poofy shorts and heels.







But then I came across this ad, which... well, if those are two little boys, then someone's been pilfering stuff from Mother's closet.







And then the eighties came and someone decided the Bisto kids needed updating to make them more appealing to today's youth. The red-headed one became a unisexual blond... um, leprechan, I think. Because leprechans are magical creatures beloved by little children everywhere.







And then after that they ditched the kids altogether, reasoning that they no longer appealed to their target audience of modern work-stressed moms.

So, what do YOU think? Boy and girl? Two boys? Siblings or not?

Who are the Bisto kids?

EDIT: Is that a flash of tummy I see on the yellow-haired leprechan, in that last picture?

EDIT: Thanks to taverymate, we have a definitive answer! The Bisto Kids were originally intended to be a brother and a sister.

Comments

[hagsrus.livejournal.com]

Personally, I never had any doubt they were brother and sister.

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Well, to me they look like two dodgy hairdressers.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, I've always thought it was two little lad urchins. Didn't really think about whether they were brothers or not. (Though I must admit that third picture is a little dubious!)

Also, would Cowley have suggested Bisto Kids to that room full of hard men if one of the Kids was a little sister?!

EditedSo, in the last pic, the tarty looking one in the v-neck green t-shirt with his belly shamelessly on display is..? *g*

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Are we talking about the same man who embraces the nickname of "the Cow" because cows nurture their young just the same as he nurtures his men?

I think Cowley has an, um... unique sense of humour. And who in all that room of hard men would dare to call him on it?

I *can* imagine some interesting discussions out in the hall afterward, though! ;-)
______________________________________________________________________

The scene right after they step out of the briefing:

Bodie: (staring thoughtfully into the air) Bisto kids, eh? He still on about that?

Doyle: Right. Always hanging around. Like a bad cold.

Bodie: Yeh, but... wasn't one of them a bird?

Doyle: (annoyed) It's an analogy, Bo-die!

Bodie: Well, I know which one I am. The handsome, well dressed lad, of course!

Doyle: Oh, ta very much!

He shoulders Bodie aside as he stalks past. Bodie elbows him, smirking.

They scuffle until Cowley shows up demanding to know what his two top agents are doing brawling in the hallway like children.

Bodie: It's the Bisto kids, sir. I think Doyle's finally taken your analogy to heart.
______________________________________________________________________

Heh.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Now I'll tell you my interpretation, I'll tell you what it's really going to be like. You'll be paired off, and from then on, you're the Bisto Kids. The slightest whiff of anything and you move in. Shake 'em down, crush 'em before they even start to grow, like an alley fight. And that's what this is, an alley fight. So kick him in the goolies first.

Sense of humour notwithstanding (though I really don't think the whole compare-a-boy-to-a-girl thing was quite as hilarious back then, cos we hadn't gone through the whole backlash-to-feminism thing yet) I'm still not convinced Cowley would throw in a I-think-you're-all-girls joke in the middle of hyping them all up and suggesting they fight like street urchins because that's how wild, tough and outside the law CI5 is..! But then that's just my version of Cowley... *g*

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Excellent!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Here's (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bisto-Kids-1977_W0QQitemZ7365113048QQcategoryZ2819QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting) a link to a 1977 version of the earlier figurine - 2 figurines, not one. The blond one's pose is similar. And a girl, I'm pretty sure of it. Which is interesting because I don't recall having a boy & girl picture in my head before (but now I am quite confused about what I thought I thought before I started thinking about it *headdesk*).

So was the "Bisto Kids" moniker simply meant to convey a general image of 2 ragamuffins sticking together? Yes, I can see that Cowley might not know/care that they were boy & girl? That works for me.

Or would the fact that Cowley did recruit the occasional female agent enter into it?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

"Bisto Kids" moniker simply meant to convey a general image of 2 ragamuffins sticking together
You mean when Cowley used it? Cos the Bisto Kids were always together... but I think really it was the "the slightest whiff of anything" thing that was the connection, now that I look at what he says again. Cos the whole Bisto (gravy) Kids thing was that as soon as they smelled it they'd be there, trying to cadge a share of the grub? I think?! It was the speed at which they ran as soon as they realised that was the real link... But I still can't see Cowley saying it if he thought one of them was a girl... (erm, the BK, not the CI5 partnerships...*g*) Cos that's kind of a whole different relationship, historically - less urchins in trouble, more big brother protective over little sister... at least, that's what I come up with in my head!

Or would the fact that Cowley did recruit the occasional female agent enter into it?
Gotta admit, I can't see this. Don't think there was a single female agent in the room when he said it, and you'd think if they were at all aware of implications like that then there would be...

The blond one's pose is similar. And a girl, I'm pretty sure of it.
Nah, see I still don't get definite lass from that one! The most dubious one is the pretend one, where the BK are all dressed up as though they're grown ups out to dinner... and even there it's just the shape of the calves and the bracelet on red's upper arm that makes me think that either she's a girl, or else is being very tricky indeed in order to get some of that gravy... *g*

Okay, we need some real English people to be awake now! *eyes clock* *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

but I think really it was the "the slightest whiff of anything" thing that was the connection, now that I look at what he says again.
By George, I do think you are right *pets transcripts*.

Gotta admit, I can't see this.
Ah, well - it was merely a random thought. Which is about all I'm capable of coming up with today :-)

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

You're right about the "whiff of anything"...

But I also think any child in 1977 would have assumed the blonde one was a girl. I know I would have. I mean, look at the hair! And those dolls - little boys didn't wear belly-baring shirts that I ever saw (but maybe in England you all were different...).

Is it possible they underwent a gender change in the seventies? It wouldn't be the first time advertisers did that. And the seventies was one of those big times for gender inclusiveness - I remember token girls showing up in everything aimed at kids.

Yeh - real English people! They must be around here somewhere...

[bistokidsfan77.livejournal.com]

Great comments and research piccies everyone! I think the Cow's idea was to have them stick together, right? And, if anyone wanted to make something of "which" Bistokid(fan) they were - hey, you know what a wicked sense of humour he has :P Much fun here...

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love your icon!

From the quote I'm guessing the Cow was going on more about following up on the whiff of anything with great speed - but the lesson about sticking together would be understood as well, because the Bisto kids were never apart.

There were apparently animated TV commercials, too! But I couldn't find anything other than the briefest reference to it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Actually an English friend has just told me that she was thrown by those animated versions (only she said they were "live action" ones, so I'm not sure if she means the cartoons or not!) in the '80s, because to her they'd always been two boys, but now one was a boy and one was a girl - so maybe there was a change, or at least a re-emphasising in the 1980s advertising campaign... There is a question in to her dad as I type... *g* I just posted to the ProsLit list too, to see if people there have any opinions!

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Have just returned from a few days out of reach of a computer to find this very interesting discussion.
Having been brought up in the fifties, I have to say that I always assumed that the Bisto kids were two boys, though I can't pretend I gave it a lot of thought! And the distinctive thing about them was that they followed the whiff of Bisto and tracked it down - always as a pair. They were always together!
Just found a BBC item about The Bisto kids - says they were introduced in 1919, apparently and became almost cult figures in the 1920s and 30s "in their cast off cut-down clothes and endearing mischievousness". Now Cowley would have been a child then, wouldn't he? I think it was that following of a scent, of tracking things down and sticking together that Cowley was thinking of when he said his teams were to be like them.
Wikipedia is quite definite that the kids are a boy and a girl. And I suspect that, if the cartoonist had meant them to be two boys they might have been known as the Bisto Boys rather than the Bisto kids. Looking at various original images on the web, I now have to conclude, that one of them is probably a girl!
As for the 1980s versions - changed beyond recognition and not worthy of the name, as far as I'm concerned!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hey, welcome back!

The thing about wiki is that it's written by people like us, and I know I've found other articles there that have information that is factually incorrect - and when I've been 100% sure about it, I've gone in myself and edited it, cos that's the whole point, that's what we're supposed to do! So the wiki argument means less to me than the fact that many Brits, like you (and me, if I count!), seem to have assumed they were two lads. And then I guess we get into the realms of what's more... more true - what we are shown, or what we perceive... *g*

I dunno about the name... I think "Bisto kids" rolls off the tongue much more catchily than "Bisto boys" somehow, evokes a more street urchin image somehow too...

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the welcome back, I do miss LJ when I'm computerless!
Yes, of course, you're right about wiki and this may be wrong. However, the rest of the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisto) does seem to be quite authoritative and lots of well informed detail, dates, etc - it would be interesting to know who submitted it, wouldn't it? And it was last modified yesterday! One of us??
And I never knew that the stuff "was named "Bisto" because it "Browns, Seasons and Thickens in One"".
As you say, the realms of what we see and what we perceive - well, that takes us into what Cowley and the lads saw, too, doesn't it - or presumably whichever of the writers first dreamed this one up!
There's at least one fanfic story (quite a good one, I think) about how Bodie (who has been out of the country for a long time as a merc) doesn't understand what Cowley means by the Bisto kids and how he frets at this until he finds out. I think it's a gen story though, so you may not have come across it! *BG*
Maybe the thing I remember more than the actual picture of the Bisto kids is the spoken accompaniment to the television advertisements of "Aaaah, Bisto" which was, I'm almost sure, in a sort of cheeky boy's voice - so maybe that re-inforced the impression of boys.
I'm a bit surprised that the term Bisto kids was in use as early as the 20s and 30s. I suppose I tend to think of kids as a more modern term, and maybe a bit Americanised. Although I come from the Black Country in the Midlands, where a term of affection was "our kid", as in other more Northern areas, I think!

Bisto Kids

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Wikis - though handy - are by their organzational nature extremely vulnerable to error and to replicating that error. There is an incredibly high percentage of sites on the web that generate content just by cut and pasting from other sources - and Wiki is a popular source - and so easily incorporate errors by not doing their own fact checking. And with the Internet, once an error is out there, it multiples and flourishes - even when the original source gets corrected.

The Bisto Kids entry has a rather large error, in that it credits the "cartoonist" as Wilf Owen. As far as I've been able to research, that's an error, not a variant name.

WILL Owen - not WILF - was a well-known illustrator in the early to mid-1900s (and if I'm being nitpicky, I'd definitely call him an illustrator rather than a cartoonist, based on the diversity of his work). He was born in Malta in 1869 and died in 1957. He was educated in Rochester and the Lambeth School of Art. He produced numerous WWI illustrations, and many satiric and humorous illustrations of British life for Punch and other politically Left periodicals. He illustrated numerous books, including several that he wrote himself such as Three Jolly Sailors and Me. *g*

He was an extremely popular illustrator of wallpaper friezes featuring children and nursery rhymes during the 1910-1920s and also designed posters - and of course, the Bisto Kids.

Speculating a bit, but I think it likely that that Will Owen's Bisto Kids would have displayed a strong old fashioned rather than more modern sensibility given his birthdate (1869), and that he was already a well established illustrator who had produced nursery rhyme friezes by the time he created the Bisto Kids in 1919.

That seems borne out by the illustrations that I've tracked down online (albeit a small number compared to his huge overall volume of work). Most of the illustrations online are political and don't concentrate on children which doesn't help much in trying to establish the original Bisto Kids as either two males or male and female. *sigh*

You can find a number of his Punch illustrations for online viewing through the Gutenberg Project.
http://ww.gutenberg.org

As a non-Brit, I tend to lean toward the two young male street urchin view of the early work based on the time frame and illustration style. And now that I think more about it, because of the Katzenjammer Kids - see below.

Once the Bisto Kids were revamped in the 70s and 80s, they clearly disply a gender difference, but the early work....Then again, the "Rich Effect" illustration (anyone have a date on that illo?) seems very boy/girl - unless the Bisto Kids were famous for doing anything to get their gravy? Did they just show up and beg for a taste, or did they actually snitch the gravy? Because if that were true, then you could perhaps make a case that they were dressing up to get into the restaurant to get at the gravy.

And I ran across a couple of brief references (circa 40s-50s) to the Bisto Kids that made it sound like the gravy packets might have come with a comic strip? Would that have been like the little comic strips that came in bubble gum packs? Or was there actually a comic strip in the newspapers, like the Katzenjammer Kids?

Which, now that I think about it, adds more weight to the two boys theory. (See second comment for more Katzenjammer Kids info and thoughts)

Jenny, if you're registered for Wiki, would you be willing to correct the Bisto entry for Will Owen's name? Not surprisingly, there are several other citations that use the name WILF Owen along with the Wiki text taken verbatim in sections and it would be helpful to correct the original source error.

Bisto Kids - Katzenjammer Kids

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Due to LJ comment limits - part 2!

The Katzenjammer Kids began in 1897, and later produced an extremely similar rival version called the Captain and the Kids. Both comic strips were wildly popular for more than fifty years, and The Katzenjammer Kids remains in syndication today (yes, more than a 100 years later!). The Katzenjammer Kids made it into animated features that still turn up on tv now and then.

The two mischieveious boys, Hans and Fritz, were drawn quite differently though they were supposed to be twins. Both wore trousers, but Fritz had dark hair and wore a string tie, and Hans was a blonde with a big curl who wore large lace ruffles at his neck and wrists.

Katzenjammer Kids - nice fan website with a variety of images:
http://www.geocities.com/~jimlowe/katzies/katzdex.html

King Features - Syndicator
http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/katzkids/aboutMaina.php

Current syndication site has slightly more modern looking boys - though the lace is still there!

And I wonder if the Katzenjammer Kids popularity was one reason why Owens called his creation the Bisto Kids, rather than say, the Bisto Boys? Though American, the Katzenjammer Kids - like many comic strips - were very popular with GIs during WWI and would have gained exposure in Europe. Not to mention that the Katzenjammer Kids were a take-off from a popular earlier series of German books.

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Hey, can you link to the BBC item? I'd like to read it, even if it doesn't clarify the debate one way or another. I've been finding this all incredibly interesting.

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Ummm, yes, well - I'll have a go!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/education/2332415.stm
Does that work? Bit technical for me, y'see! If it doesn't I'll look up the "how to" notes and have another go!

[moorspede.livejournal.com]

I decided ages ago that the Bisto Kids had just lost their r, and that they were people who frequented licensed eating houses.

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Lost their what?

Is that like their mojo?

"Licensed eating house" = a restaurant that serves liquor?

*confused canadian wanders off to read through her big dictionary of British slang again...*

;-)

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Ohh! *palmface* Um, you mean BistRo kids?

I liked the idea that they'd lost their mojo better...

Bisto Kids - Original models were sister and brother pair

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Posting this here for those who aren't on the Pros-Lit list and so didn't see Billie's post. Billie found info that the original models for the Bisto Kids were a sister and brother pair.

Note: Grace Sully (nee Laidler)'s obituary in the Mid-Sussex Times reads as
follows:

MRS GRACE SULLY, 4 Hatchgate Lane, Cuckfield, who died on May 24, was born
in 1901 and her elder brother, Tom Laidler, was the illustrator of many
schoolgirl stories of the Bessie Bunter type. She and her younger brother
were the models for the original Bisto Kids poster which was designed by a
friend.


Of course, that doesn't address byslantedlight's point that: many Brits, like you (and me, if I count!), seem to have assumed they were two lads. And then I guess we get into the realms of what's more... more true - what we are shown, or what we perceive... *g*

Re: Bisto Kids - Original models were sister and brother pair

[myrebelcat.livejournal.com]

Well, that clears it up for me! Boy and girl. Thanks!

Which, I guess, raises another question - Did Cowley think they were two lads, or did he simply not care, since his primary point was about following up on even the slightest whiff of trouble? (As opposed to a direct comparison of each team to the Bisto kids.)

Man, I love analyzing things to death!

:-)