CI5 hq

Squeeeeeak!

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oops, sorry! (quickly moves offending foot).

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Your game.

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oh come on, please, please tell us why you recced it - I want to know.

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moth2fic.livejournal.com

Well, it's mid-evening and

firlefanzine hasn't posted yet and I need to log off so...

This was a beautifully crafted and writtten story. I love the way the ‘episode’and the romantic problems were so effortlessly interwoven, the way everything was solved but not tritely and the way the case and the romance echoed each other in many ways - the uncertainties, the periods of boredom, the sudden epiphanies, the twists and turns. I thoroughly enjoyed it as a story. However, as a Pros story I wasn’t quite convinced. Neither Bodie nor Doyle seemed quite in keeping with my Bodie and Doyle. Bodie was too aloof and afraid of contact, and Doyle was too intense and romantic. ‘My’ Doyle and Bodie are not as opposite, not as extreme, not, for that matter, as introspective. I liked the way they almost didn’t resolve the stiuation and I liked the ending but wasn’t at all certain the lads would have reacted this way. Sometimes I feel a writer has a story to tell and has hung it on a fandom in order to get it to an audience; this was one of those times, and whilst I enjoyed it - a lot - I think that, for me, is its greatest flaw.

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cloudless-9193.livejournal.com

I liked this one. I didn't experience Bodie as insensitive but rather insecure and not ready yet to risk being hurt in such a relationship as Doyle had in mind. And I loved the ending, with Doyle denying the promises of everlasting love Bodie demanded of him. After reading it the first time I was so impressed I sent the author an e-mail to tell her how much I liked it.

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tears-of-nienna.livejournal.com

I enjoyed the fic, but Doyle felt a little bit off to me--his neediness got a little wearing. Obviously he's looking for something more lasting than Bodie is, but expecting to find it so quickly, and pursuing it so doggedly, seemed odd to me. (Not that I don't think Doyle is often stubborn in his pursuit of things...but he let Ann drive away, didn't he?)

It was a good read, but I don't plan on bookmarking it, if that makes sense.

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ladyhawke2.livejournal.com

This fic was well written but I just couldn't get past the characterisation of Bodie, it was so far from how I see him that I don't think I will ever re-read it. That being said, I absolutely love some of the other stories from this author, and a lot of them are high on my favourites list.

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sc-fossil.livejournal.com

I definitely agree with this. I have several of her stories in zine form and enjoy rereading them. That this story didn't work for me takes away nothing from her as a writer. I don't expect a good writer to hit me every single time. Even my all time favourite HG has a few that didn't thrill me. Alexandra has plenty of stories to enjoy rereading.

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barush.livejournal.com

Seems like most people weren't satisfied with Bodie, but for me it was the lovesick Doyle I couldn't get over. It was simply too out of character for me. Over all, it wasn't bad, but as a few people have already said, I won't be bookmarking this one for a later reread. However, I'm totally willing to give a try to some other fics by the same author :)

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sc-fossil.livejournal.com

I like Summer's End and Tea for Two a lot. And the way too short "Pros Fanfic..." is so funny.

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kiwisue.livejournal.com

It's not my favourite Alexandra story, and I do think Doyle comes across as too needy. Maybe it's the style - I don't like too much telling in my stories & she does it a lot here. Maybe it's just OTT writing; "Perhaps Bodie had been right all along. He didn't know the first thing about love, couldn't succeed in finding the right person. Or perhaps he was simply cursed somehow, doomed to be rejected at every turn no matter what he did, with no rhyme nor reason.". This doesn't sound like Doyle to me. Bodie was better, but still a bit off.

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Sorry that I was too late with my rec!

I have the same objection like most here.
But like Gilda_elise I was very fond of the story when I read it for the first time last autumn - otherwise I wouldn't have proposed to rec it.
So I tried to find out 'what has happened' to my opinion in the meantime...
I was just working through the notes I've done while rereading, and to write down my thoughts for a rec, when Jaycat made her post...

So I feel that the rec and every kind of 'hosting the discussion' is no longer in my hands.
I'm sad about that, because I actually like it.

Anyway. I can fully agree with Sc_fossil: "I don't expect a good writer to hit me every single time.... Alexandra has plenty of stories to enjoy rereading."

I like most of Alexandra's stories! (And still do after second and third rereading! :-)) Her 'Tea For Two' is on my alltime top five list!

But again... Sorry!

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kiwisue.livejournal.com

Hello! "Then and now" sounds interesting - I'd like to know the gist of what you were going to say anyway. I know my opinions change with time.

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'Then' I was in an 'Alexandra hype'! :-)
And the story has a very interesting start, and the dialogues are good, and as many said, the story is never really bad or totally unconvincing.
And I think I 'decide' after the first few pages whether I like a story or not..., and then I kind of 'give a bonus' for the rest of it.

'Now' I had to watch through the eyes of the other readers.

But I'm a bit in a hurry - I prefer to do the shopping before work today, because there is much more snow to come in the afternoon. I like it - but you're not alone on the streets... :-)

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oh I AM REALLY sorry I spoiled it for you. Just mortified. I've only logged on just now to see if you'd come back. I was hoping you'd post your review anyway and we'd carry on from your post. It's entirely my fault for being disorganised and not consulting you.

Funnily enough I'm in the same position, I read this in 2008 (when I was very new to fanfic) and loved it, but now I am a bit more critical.

On that mysterious note I have to go and do real life until this evening, by which time I'll have missed most of this discussion too.

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Yes, you DID spoil it for me.
You know, it's not only taking the 'random button' at the Circuit Archive to select a story. You take one of you favourite readings - or maybe one you want to discuss. Then you read it again and you think about it a lot! About the things you want to say in your rec. You make notes, write a bit and then change it and write it new.
So it is a bit 'disturbing'... if someone comes along and pushes your efforts aside - just like that.

But your apology is accepted!

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So it is a bit 'disturbing'... if someone comes along and pushes your efforts aside - just like that.

Oh. But you know, I think we'd all have enjoyed reading your thoughts every bit as much at this point in the discussion. I'm sorry you didn't share them!

Speaking for myself, I'm really happy the RR discussion is back.

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Not so easy, being stubborn like me... ;-)

But I'm also happy!

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heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com

Hmm, for once I seem to like a story more than some others do! *g* (I usually get the feeling it's the other way round) .... so that sets me to wondering why I like it. Well as several people have pointed out, and moth2fic has expressed so well, it's very well constructed; the ep-action elements work beautifully and everything fits in so well. Though I have a couple of niggles ... if you're going to give an organisation a Spanish name because it's from an overwhelmingly Spanish-speaking country, you might check that both words you pick actually exist - in Spanish or any other language. Writers often go to great lengths to check their details, so why not check a word? I confess I find this annoying, and it throws me out of a story - though it didn't stop me from enjoying the whole fic.

The other thing that threw me right out fr a moment was Doyle's ridiculously exaggerated respect for Thatcher - I thought that really was OOC for him, especially as he's often shown to be distinctly disinclined to kowtow to authority and possibly even to have (some) leftie leanings from time to time! Besides, everyone called her Maggie! Even people who approved of her!

But overall I still liked it. I don't really feel this B and D are quite as OOC as some people do ... I think this Doyle is pretty tough, actually, rather than excessively romantic, in the way he accepts that he's not going to get what he wants and sets out to cope as best he can - and refuses to promise Bodie something that can't be promised, no matter how much they both want him to. Bodie's once-bitten-twice-shy thing is a bit stretched here, perhaps, but quite a tenable position for him on the whole - not so far from the possible range of character for him as to be impossible to relate to.

Oh well that's just my 2p-worth *g* - an interesting one for the Reading Room, anyway!

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byslantedlight.livejournal.com

I'm just re-reading the fic now, and although I've not got up to the Spanish bit yet, I've just come across The van stood in front of a warehouse loading dock, and the three brothers had gotten out to chat with a man of European descent. and am blinking rather rapidly at it - it harks back so well to the question I posted on my own lj a few days ago, about whether "Europe" is seen from other countries as a single homogenic lump! Does he look Scandinavian, or Greek, or perhaps Welsh?! And since the vast majority of people in the UK were also "European" - how in the world does that distinguish "the man" from them anyway?! I do like Alexandra's stories, and she's apologised in prefaces etc for their lack of Brit-checking, but... sometimes just a bit of thought too...! I know that's easy to say in hindsight, but...

Americanisms...

Hmmn - I think, like

kiwisue it's not so much what the lads are feeling here, and what they're doing etc that puts me off a little, it's the way they seem to linger over it. Bodie seems more to be getting on with things (I'm not seeing him as callous, just not understanding/reciprocating yet), so I'm rolling my eyes at him less than I am at Doyle, but Doyle is very much being a bit of a moping poppet about it all - and even if he was like that I can't see him admitting it out loud to Bodie - "I'm not pissed off, I'm depressed."...

No time to finish it now, hopefully I'll have a chance later, and come back!

Nice to see Reading Room set off again, though!

Edited Date: 2010-01-08 01:58 pm (UTC)

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heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com

Oh, "European descent" - I missed that one! I suspect I automatically mis-read it as "Eastern European descent", which is something I would sort of expect to see.

re the "I'm not pissed off, I'm depressed.", I don't know - I imagined him saying it in a very pissed-off voice *g* - kind of like when people say things like "cheer up love, it might never 'appen" and you want to break something over their head or kick them in the kneecaps or something, because what do they know, you've got reasons for looking like that! *bg*

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"European descent" I read as being used in contrast to the "Arab" brothers he's meeting. 'Caucasian' wouldn't be appropriate for 1970s British law-enforcers. I think in that context you would say 'European', as opposed to 'Arab' or 'Asian' - it just indicates he's not one of their family/countrymen I guess. Could have been done a bit more subtly, though.

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byslantedlight.livejournal.com

Hmmn, maybe... I can see the reasoning you're suggesting, but it still reads strangely to me... I agree that "Caucasian" wouldn't have been used - wouldn't even now, I don't think, to be honest. I suspect they'd just think "white" though - I really don't think they'd be so specific as to think "European" cos that can mean so many different looks. And an American, or Australian or Canadian or South African would look the same as a "European" as opposed to "Arab" in this situation, so... it just makes no sense to me! If they'd spoken the description, then maybe "European", although my first reaction would still be to want clarification, but since it was thought...

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IMHO, the plot is fine and the problem IS in the writing, particularly the pace of it. Like others, I find Doyle too needy, but I think Alexandra is just being bit abrupt about it, too upfront and explicit.

This fic could have been a lot more satisfying and less open to the criticisms voiced here by a writer who took longer to let the characters understand their feelings, and the readers too.
For instance, we are introduced to Bodie's feelings with this stark thought
And that's all it's ever going to be, he mentally added. Because I sure as hell couldn't handle falling for you, not in a million years.

Doyle falling for Bodie, Doyle falling for Sarah, Doyle telling Bodie some home truths before thumping him, Bodie's revelation about his mother (although we did have liberal hints about mothers), it's all too fast, hence we are unconvinced.

But I think the elements were there - for instance I am quite convinced that a man who was abandoned by his mother could have difficulties in relationships with women and with loving relationships. Not quite sure how you get there from canon, but Doyle's "You don't really like women, do you?" was rather striking.

Alexandra's writing is Romantic (a quality I very much appreciate in Pros fandom), she paints in oils with rich, deep shades rather than delicate translucent watercolours.

Her lads ooze sexual attractiveness - it is completely obvious that they should fall for each other, and everyone should love them. They are witty and intelligent (I do love Bodie moving in on Sarah at the Bodleian!), capable of friendship and love. Just the way I like them, in fact.

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Her lads ooze sexual attractiveness - it is completely obvious that they should fall for each other, and everyone should love them. They are witty and intelligent (I do love Bodie moving in on Sarah at the Bodleian!).

That's a great twist -- I do think she's got a strong (and rare) apptitude for plot.

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magenta-blue.livejournal.com

Throwing my tuppence into the ring... *g*

I also started with 'A' at the Circuit, and quickly liked Alexandra's fics, as she can definitely hang a good story together. But I also read her fics very early on when discovering Pros, and possibly hadn't fully formed my own ideas of how B & D would act, or even watched all of the DVDs (at least, as many times as I have watched them now. *g*)

I find that I don't tend to re-visit Alexandra's stories at all, so I was curious with this rec to see why, especially as I had good memories of them. I remember this one especially for that lovely title. But it doesn't take long for me to feel thrown out of this fic. My first 'eh?' moment was:

"Bit anxious, aren't you?" Doyle sipped at his drink. "You really want to get it on tonight?"

"Yeah, I do." Bodie chugged his whiskey.

I just cannot see that conversation happening. I'd see it as:

"Bit anxious, aren't you?" Doyle sipped at his drink.

Bodie chugged his whisky. "We weren't exactly sober last time."

Maybe it was the words 'get it on'... And then later, Doyle musing about everyone telling him he was gorgeous but he didn't see it... I can't see that as a conversation starter either!

So now, already so early, I am not convinced this is my Bodie and Doyle. When this happens I think of the thousands of fics out there, and the possibility the next one will have my version, and so onwards I skip!

I find if there is a story where the characterisation is wrong (for me), then this same characterisation might run through the rest of the author's fics, and so they become stories I rarely revisit. Of course not every story by an author may please, but the authors I tend to bookmark seem to share my vision of how B & D act. This still doesn't mean I love every story of theirs, but the thing that I might not like is the subject or setting, rather than to wonder who these strange men are calling themselves B & D.

So with Alexandra now, I find I don't revisit her stories, although I do remember liking Tea for Two. Maybe I should pick that one up again and see how it fares with me!

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byslantedlight.livejournal.com

I just cannot see that conversation happening....Maybe it was the words 'get it on'... And then later, Doyle musing about everyone telling him he was gorgeous but he didn't see it... I can't see that as a conversation starter either!
Yes, to all of this!

I find that with some of Alexandra's stories I can forgive the obvious Americanisms much more than in others. It took me ages to read "Summer's End" because she starts of with Doyle looking for his "muffler" although I liked it after that... although the policeman is a very stereotypical small-town-American-via-Hollywood policeman too... I liked Tea for Two though, and I don't remember it being as awkward as the others... I'm thinking that I need to re-read some more of her stories too now, though!

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kiwisue.livejournal.com

Tea for Two is a favourite of mine too. Have we discussed this before? I seem to remember something like that. Maybe it's the fairly gentle parody of "house party" murder mysteries, maybe it's the atmosphere she weaves, and the slightly cuckoo characters, but I've always found it a fun reread.

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I find if there is a story where the characterisation is wrong (for me), then this same characterisation might run through the rest of the author's fics, and so they become stories I rarely revisit. Of course not every story by an author may please, but the authors I tend to bookmark seem to share my vision of how B & D act. This still doesn't mean I love every story of theirs, but the thing that I might not like is the subject or setting, rather than to wonder who these strange men are calling themselves B & D.

As I was reading this, I was thinking that this was true for me also, but then it occurred to me that there are various characterizations that aren't exactly true to my vision of the lads, but for some reason I still love the stories. This happens often in AU. Larton is one example -- not the lads, but yet enough of the lads...and what isn't the lads is still really appealing to me. Or Kate MacLean or Angelfish or Helen Raven. None of these portrayals is always and exactly my vision of the lads, and yet their vision is both riveting and convincing enough that I can go with it.

So I wonder if some of it has to do with more than accuracy of capturing canon (which is, I'm willing to admit, subjective). Maybe it's some knack for creating characters that are appealing in their own right? Like, it's not Doyle and Bodie, but I still really like (or at least am interested in) these guys whoever they are?

So then the problem with works like LiaFC is...these characters don't ring true and they aren't appealing enough in their original aspects?

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magenta-blue.livejournal.com

You see, for me Larton is the lads - I still recognise those characters as B & D, the B & D I love on the screen. Their reactions, personalities, quirks, traits - all this is there (for me) so I can quite happily read them as authors and horse trainers and painters and anything as long as I see them as the lads. This is oh-so important to me when reading AU - they still have to be recognisably my vision of the lads. If they are I can quite happily read them as anything! If they aren't then it could be almost a transcripted ep and I'd still put it down.

It's interesting though that you can still read stories without it being entirely your vision of the lads. I understand what you say about creating characters that are appealing in their own right, but if I am here for B & D, then I just don't waste time with anything else. If I want characters that are appealing in their own right I would pull a book from the shelf. I'm trying to think how I read other fan fic, whether it matters how well I know the canon etc... and I still think even if I am only vaguely aware of the film / story (seen once, say) that the fic has to still be my vision of whoever it is. Subjective I know!

I agree that the characters in LiaFC don't ring true and aren't appealing enough - also down below your comment mentions the dialogue, and I think that is a major part of why I cannot read this fic. The story itself is interesting, but I cannot ever imagine B & D saying half of what they say in this fic!

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That's an interesting point about one's taste changing the longer you're in the fandom. Initially I was so critical I enjoyed almost nothing -- and all I wanted to read were case-based CI5 stories. I couldn't wrap my mind around the notion of AU. (What was the POINT?!)

But then something happened. I relaxed a little, I guess. And I began to consider the validity of fan fic as its own artform. And I began to enjoy a lot more stories -- including AU (in fact, some AU stories are now my very favorites).

As far as "Love in a Faithless Country"...I love the story idea. It's one of my favorites -- one of the lads is in love with the other who, for whatever reason, doesn't reciprocate (or doesn't realize he does). And it's a nice long story -- and a CI5 case-based story. My problem is with execution and characterization.

For me, it's not Bodie that rings false as much as Doyle. Doyle is just...fingernails on a blackboard. All that thinking and moping about his feelings. As others have said, it's just too needy and emo for blokes a) in this profession, b) as the character appears in canon.

This scene is just great and ghastly at the same time:

"Ray, leave it alone. We were having a good time together. Why can't we go on the same way?"

"No."

Now he was making less sense than before. "Why not?"

Doyle turned back to face him, his features carefully schooled. "Because I can't handle it, that's why. I want you, Bodie. I need you. I love you, dammit. And I can't share you."

So that's what this was all about. "You wanted it to be just you and me? No more birds?"

"Yeah, that was the idea."

"Then it was a crazy idea, Doyle."

"I can see that."

He looked so forlorn at that moment that Bodie nearly stepped forward to hug him. Don't. Mustn't care, mustn't believe him. Will only cause pain in the long run.

"Why don't you go on home, Ray." He kept his tone gentle. "We can talk about this when we get back to work."

"Not much to talk about," Doyle said flatly. "We're going to end it."

Bodie sighed, shaking his head. "I don't want to end it. Everything was fine until you went and got romantic on me. We're good in bed, Ray. Do you really want to give that up?"

"There's only one thing I want, Bodie." Doyle gave him a steady look. "I want love."

He truly did want to end it. Bodie couldn't understand Doyle. He had so many good things in reality, and he would throw it all away for the sake of an illusion. "Then you'll have to look somewhere else."

"I will if I have to," Doyle said. "But I don't want to. I think you're telling yourself a pack of lies, mate. You don't even know your own heart--"

The door buzzer sounded.

Bodie calmly went over and let Doreen in. "Doreen, this is Ray Doyle. Sorry you can't get to know each other better. Ray was just going."

Doyle stared at him for a long, hard moment. Then he turned and walked out without a word.

I love the dynamic and what she's trying to do there -- love the angst and anguish -- but the dialog is so painful (as in unbelievable). Never in a million years.

The writing is mostly competent but uninspired. As someone else pointed out, there's a lot of telling rather than showing, a lot of exposition, a lot of thinky bits.

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