CI5 hq

How can I explain it? – Well, the story left me totally unmoved. Nice enough, but not more.

There is for once Detective-Sergeant Harris. I like good minor characters in Pros stories, but the long conversation at the beginning is quite boring.
Then - is it much likely that Bodie has to spend a night in prison? And is it much likely that Cowley would let that happen? And that Cowley would do nothing after Doyle’s 'poisoning'? (Why would everybody be so afraid of the power of CI5, if Cowley would let them treat his men that way?)
But that wouldn’t really disturb me, if I would like the rest of it. Maybe it’s the 'bad' start of the story? Maybe it’s because Doyle didn’t really try to 'free' Bodie, that he is happily having a celebration at the Sangster Arms?

Maybe it’s just that I’m not able to enjoy ”HG's characterisation of the lads” enough?
- I’m probably the only one who doesn’t love Rediscovered In A Graveyard...

Anyway – I never read a fic about "It's Only A Beautiful Picture" before, and it never came to my mind how dangerous Doyle’s actions with the fire was for Bodie...
Thanks for the rec!

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I'm wondering about them staying up all night partying in the Sangster Arms when Sangster has just been carted off by the police! Maybe everyone in the village disliked Sangster.

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I rather assumed that Sangster is a typical-ish "lord", and didn't properly mix with the locals, except to the extent that he might want to keep them on side for future use... And the party didn't have anything to do with Sangster, it was a stag night for one of the policemen, wasn't it?

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And is it much likely that Cowley would let that happen?
Why not, if he didn't need Bodie urgently, and thought it was partly his own fault for not being able to clear it up himself?

And that Cowley would do nothing after Doyle’s 'poisoning'? (Why would everybody be so afraid of the power of CI5, if Cowley would let them treat his men that way?)
Well I think in this case Doyle himself agreed that he'd deserved the practical joke (although it was a vindictive one that could have gone wrong) and Cowley also agreed that Doyle probably provoked Gordon, so... I think Cowley's a far bigger proponent of justice, and that CI5's power lies more in the fact that it's always seen to be doing right, rather than because it makes people afraid of it...

Maybe it’s because Doyle didn’t really try to 'free' Bodie, that he is happily having a celebration at the Sangster Arms?
But he did - he tried to get the first policeman to help him, but because of his undercover persona he'd made that rather difficult. Then he went to see Ralston anyway, and Ralston absolutely refused to release Bodie. He decided for a specific reason (which I've suggested below) not to invoke the small print on his ID to have him released - basically that would have got them both in much worse trouble. So... So then why shouldn't he go out for the night, since they were both stuck? What would you expect him to do instead? He's a young man, who's just successfully finished a case, despite the fact that his partner was accidentally arrested - and nobody, including Bodie took real offence at that. Even Bodie said that he saw the funny side of it, and it was only because Gordon lied to him about Doyle and the redhead that Bodie was angry with Doyle...

Funnily enough I'm re-reading Re-discovered in a Graveyard now, and yeah, I love it... *g*

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Bodie and Doyle risked their life and Cowley just says: "Hey, it's your fault if the police officers play their little games with you. See for yourself how you get out of it."

Ahem... No! That's not the way it works!

Have fun with the two stories! ;-)

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Ahem... No! That's not the way it works!
Yeah... 'tis in my world... *g* Cowley's not their dad... and come to think of it, alot of dads would have left them to it - whose fault was it, after all?!

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I struggled with this one too. No way would either Doyle or Cowley let Bodie stay in jail overnight and the whole poisoning Doyle bit was taken way too lightly.

The rest of the story was OK, but not one I am in a hurry to read over again.

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Hi there, thanks for dropping by.

RE Bodie spending the night in the cells, I've suggested below that it's CI5 wanting to be seen to do the right thing by the local authorities. Although since Bodie was clearly the victim of Sangster's lot it is a bit odd he's treated as though he's one of them.
But really, for plot purposes, they had to have a reason to stay in the village overnight - and if Bodie was out of action, why shouldn't Doyle go out for a drink with the local coppers (more Doyle solidarity with police there)? He fully intended to do the right thing and be there to collect Bodie when he was released in the morning.

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I've suggested below that it's CI5 wanting to be seen to do the right thing by the local authorities
Yes - this is another totally plausible reason. Don't disrupt people you may need to work with again, more than necessary!

I'm not sure about "plot purposes" though - sort of yes, in that the whole story was about that, but... yeah, the whole story was about that! *g*

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I adore this fic - and why wouldn't Doyle or Cowley let Bodie stay in jail overnight? Doyle pointed out that once Bodie was in the police system, the police had to carry through with procedure, and Ralston and Gordon were vindictive enough to insist on that - it wasn't worth invoking his small print over that, because interfering with police procedure is difficult to do (for a reason!). Easier by far for Bodie to sleep in the jail rather than in a hotel somewhere - and it was only overnight. Presumably if there'd been anything urgent on (Cowley said there wasn't, in the fic) then he would have been sprung.

I don't think the poisoning bit was taken lightly either - the implication was that Gordon would be disciplined by his own mob for what was effectively a vindictive practical joke that went a bit wrong... Doyle didn't insist on starting a civil court case (which would be a very major thing, taking time and money) because he felt that he'd deserved the joke to some extent. What would you have liked to see happen?

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Good points.

In answer to your question: With Doyle's poisoning, I guess my concern over reactions was more from the CI5 side. The way I read it, although it was considered serious, Cowley was almost saying that Doyle brought it on himself with his big mouth. Yes he has a smart mouth, but that doesn't make it OK to poison him.

Neither Bodie or Doyle seemed to respond as strongly as I expected they would. Especially from the point of view that Bodie thought he had still done wrong with the redhead, even after he knew of the poisoning and who had done it - the same source who gave him that information. He didn't adjust his thinking with what he knew had happened with Doyle.

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Oh but he wasn't poisoned, he was given an emetic - something to make him nauseous/feel sick, but not actually harm him... It doesn't say what it was specifically, but you can do that with salt - it's not as if he'd been administered with a fatal poison that was supposed to kill him. It's a less nice version of itching powder, effectively...

And surely Doyle effectively having an affair with a woman, when Bodie wanted him to love him would have nothing to do with Doyle being poisoned anyway? I mean, him being poisoned wouldn't have changed what he did before that - so if you disagreed with that (as Bodie did) then it wouldn't cancel it out... (Or maybe I misunderstood your last point?)

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I think Bodie was just probably still caught up in the jealousy side of things that he didn't stop to think things through.

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But... no, I still think it's completely irrelevant...

That's surely like saying, well okay he killed someone, but then he came down with H1N1 which was a really horrid thing, so let's not worry about that little old murder thing...

Innit? *g*

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Not quite. Different level of seriousness and we're talking about two guys who know each other better than anyone else.

I get where you are coming from and you've made me think a bit more about the story. I'll give it another go.

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Oh, but I'm not sure they do know each other better than anyone else though... cos they're both insecure with each other, which is how the whole plot arises in the first place... But yeah, I was using an exaggerated comparison - still comparable in the theory of it though... *g*

I do like hearing about the way we all read things differently though, it's well interesting! So thank you for chatting! *g*

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You're welcome!

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‘Beginning to wonder if he had missed an earlier part of the conversation...’

That about sums up my reactions to the first half of the story. It’s obviously set around and within an episode and that’s OK but the reader shouldn’t have to feel they need to go and immediately rewatch the episode to make sense of the story. Later I began to feel I knew what was going on but then we got the sudden and unnecessary p.o.v. switch. The ending was quite pleasing but a bit long-drawn-out. I usually like this author - does anyone know if this was one of her earlier efforts?

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Good point about feeling the need to rewatch the episode - I would have got more out of this if I had rewatched, but didn't have time to. I just went and checked the transcript cos I thought Harris was a character in the episode, and to refresh my memory about Sgt Gordon.

Hmm, in fanfiction, how much familiarity should the author assume?

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I think the author can assume some familiarity with the 'world' of the fandom (e.g. this is CI5 in '70s London), the names and basic personalities/roles of the main characters (Bodie, Dowle, Cowley plus maybe one or two more of CI5) plus their physical descriptions (no small Doyles!!) and beyond that I think the author should weave information (subtly) into the text.

(Sorry about the non-pros icon - for some reason LJ keeps logging me out today)

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"I think the author can assume some familiarity with the 'world' of the fandom (e.g. this is CI5 in '70s London), the names and basic personalities/roles of the main characters (Bodie, Dowle, Cowley plus maybe one or two more of CI5) plus their physical descriptions (no small Doyles!!)
I would say what you describe is the minimum I would like to know if I read a crossover.
If I read a Pros fic I don't want the author to describe details each Pros fan can tell by heart...
I absolutely agree Byslantedlight here!
**
Edit: My icon gave me the perfect example. When there is Bodie's windmill running mentioned in a fic, you can be sure that every fan girl has a smile on her face remembering it... :-)
Each further explanation would destroy it! (When Bodie runs, he paddles with his arms so that he looks like a windmill...)
**
Maybe in earlier days it was difficult to be aware of each episode, so the author had to explain a bit more. But nowadays each fan can happily rewatch the episodes! And I even like it when there are hidden hints of other fics - or insider knowledge of London, or something like a running joke... - because you can be sure that there are fans who will find it and post it! ;-)

That's what makes fandom even more exciting!

Edited Date: 2009-11-20 05:55 pm (UTC)

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I did say 'subtly' and your example would not be subtle by any means! Those kind of descriptions are part of what I would in fact expect fans to know and other readers to pick up as they went along. Details about episodes on the other hand...

Frankly, I don't have time to watch things over and over till they're really familiar. I saw the whole series as it first aired, and have rewatched some, but not all episodes since. And I have some waiting to be watched but...

Like a lot of people, I'm very multi-fandom in my tastes though Pros is one the ones at the top of my 'list'. I am very happy for fics to have layers that will add extra pleasure for fans who are perhaps more committed than me, but I still think the rest of us can expect a little more guidance on what is going on. I had no idea about the minor characters in this and don't have the episode and even if I did, wouldn't have had time to rewatch it before reading.

So maybe this was a fic for fans with greater single-mindedness than me!!

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Damn! And I thought that my example was more than subtle...

But I don't like the story anyway, although I'm very single minded in my choice of fandom!

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I had no idea about the minor characters in this and don't have the episode and even if I did, wouldn't have had time to rewatch it before reading.
From what I've seen over the last few years, there are definitely different levels of fans, and so there's never going to be a way of pleasing them all at once. Like

firlefanzine I adore fics that drop the occasional in-joke to readers, and yet if that same fic stopped to explain a particular plot point from the ep or whatever, it would totally detract from the intimacy it had gathered with the in-jokes. I'm not sure that you can really have both together... I definitely wouldn't expect someone who has only watched some eps once, for example, to remember all the details that I might want to put into a fic - but then I'm not writing for them, I'm writing, basically, for me and the people who like/read fic the same way I do. I'm writing the characterisation and details that I see, because I want, somewhere out there, another person to be going yes! when they read the story (because that's what I love when I'm reading fic, those yes! moments... *g*) I can't make that happen for every reader, just as I don't expect every story I read to have those moments - but it really is that tiny minority of people that I'm ultimately looking for. Everyone else is a bonus, every other fic I read is a bonus, but you can't spoil the glorious potential of the yes! moments by making things more general for the people who aren't going to share those moments in the first place...

You know? *g* Basically yes to the different kinds of fans and readers! *g*

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And I even like it when there are hidden hints of other fics - or insider knowledge of London, or something like a running joke.
Yes! Me too - it adds that extra dimension to the story! *g*

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I've got to admit that I barely noticed the pov changes at the end - it was done skillfully, we slid into Bodie as Doyle left the room, and then we slid back into Doyle later on. But I've also realised that I'd not come across the literary obsession with single point of view until I found fandom - I was absolutely used to moving between viewpoints in stories, and not necessarily ones that are obviously "omniescent" in other ways. So as long as the change is done well, as long as it seems natural to the action, then it's all good - and I thought this did.

It's also an interesting question about how much we think an author should explain to us - who's she writing for? I tend to write for Pros fans, and therefore I do expect them to catch smaller nuances I might add from canon without explaining them. I'm not trying to explain the story and characters and fandom to new fans, I'm not trying to explain them to non-fans - I absolutely assume that if I'm writing for fandom, then its their responsibility to catch up on fannish things they might have missed... Or if they're not into it that deeply, then to realise that they may well miss things... I think that's part of the reason I rarely read crossovers if I don't know the other canon - because it'll be a half-and-half thing to me, and I'll know that I've missed something, which I hate!

Anyway - I really like Black Sheep, I think it's classic HG, and great. I love the way she wove the ep into her story, and thought she did a brilliant job tying up loose ends, or at least explaining them away, like Doyle lighting that flaming rag when he must surely have been soaked in petrol himself - and with Bodie in the middle of it!

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Perhaps in my own learning in a writers' group, I've been made supersensitive to p.o.v. changes. They really throw me out of the story, fanfic or original. The only way they can work for me is if there's a definite change point - a bew chapter, a line of asterisks, some mention by the author od what's going on, something like that.

I don't mind, in any fandom, missing things because I'm not 100% familiar with the source material, but I mind not being able to enter the story because I haven't the faintest idea what's going on. If a fic has grown out of an episode I need to be vaguely reminded of what had just happened. It took about half the story before I was clued in - and if that makes me a 'bad' fan, so be it!

And it's no good an author telling me the title of an episode because I never manage to remember titles or names or authors or....

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Lol - not "good" or "bad" fans, just fans who're interested at different levels... *g* (I'm rubbish at titles and names and authors too, mostly... though every now and then I have my moments... but then I also once bowled ten strikes in a row! Ten actual strikes in a row! Of course I can't usually manage one, but... *g* It even has a name when you do that (which I can't remember now, cos it was quite some time ago... *g*).. but anyway - so yeah, sometimes I'll come up with the goods, but in general? Or under pressure?! Nah... *g*)

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I was just chuffed that it's actually a fic I've read before and quite liked. Plus I do like fic that's tied in closely with an ep, and "It's Only a Beautiful Picture" is a very delightful ep to be tied in with.

True about the danger of fire and aviation fuel, I'm surprised Doyle wasn't ill from standing around soaked in the stuff. Not sure why Bodie had to spend the night in the cells, but one way of looking at it is that both Doyle and Cowley have respect for the local police, or at least it's politic to look like they do.

And who wouldn't have wanted, along with Bodie, to be a fly on the wall to see Doyle's late-night striptease?

The characterisation comes out for me in the plot about the lads being at cross-purposes. There is such a profound misunderstanding, first about Doyle and the "redhead", then Bodie throws in "Sylvia", and each thinks the other has lost interest, just because they aren't up to talking about their feelings. I think that's another reason why they both had to have such a rotten time, Bodie in the cells and Doyle being drugged, because each of them felt so horrible that day that they were even less inclined than usual to communicate honestly.

I also wondered about the evil Gordon (must be the Sgt Gorton in the transcript) - carefully telling Bodie about Doyle and the redhead - d'you think he knew that Bodie would be jealous?

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Oh, I really like this fic - I've just re-read it over lunch, and I found myself sitting there just enjoying myself, all calm and happy from reading the story! *g*

Bodie had to stay the night in the cells because Doyle didn't want to invoke the small print on his ID - the implication to me was that proper channels had to be followed by all agents if at all possible, and because Doyle had allowed Bodie to be carted off in the first place, procedure had to be followed. Why did the Gordon keep him in, despite presumably seeing that he a) hadn't been with Sangster if he was in handcuffs (although conceivably, in their eyes, it could have been Doyle who handcuffed Bodie and Sangster who rescued him and was carting him to safety in the plane); and b) him saying he was a CI5 agent? Well, since Bodie was undercover he presumably didn't have his ID on him, and since Gordon and Ralston both wanted to upset Doyle in return for his treatment of them, they could pretend that they had no proof of his ID. I can't remember what Ralston told Doyle when he went in, but again the implication was that because the procedure had begun, and because he had to power to hold him for 24 hours, that's what he was going to do - and serve Doyle right for being such a bugger to them...

I'm not sure what you mean by "characterisation comes out" - d'you mean you felt they lost B/D characterisation? To me that fitted in well with the insecurities they'd clearly both had about their relationship - Bodie counting the number of times they'd had sex, and Doyle realising that it wasn't just sex for him, but that it probably was for Bodie. Because yes, I thought it was pretty clear that Gordon made up the story about the redhead to get Doyle into further trouble with his mate - he was absolutely stirring! Not so much to make Bodie jealous, cos he wouldn't know about that, but to emphasise the idea that Doyle was out having a lovely time with a desirable woman rather than suffering as Bodie was suffering...

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re characterisation, I agree with you that HG has them in character well. They're quite rough and tough, at the same time as harbouring these insecurities and uncertainties about each other. Doyle particularly has a sort of wildness, like the aviation fuel - it picks up well from the ending of the episode, and the striptease and his casual response to finding money shoved in his jeans, "Thought I hadn't robbed a bank", as though carousing into the small hours is a pretty common occurrence for him.

The whole sub-plot (maybe it's even the plot) based on their mutual misunderstanding to me defines HG's characterisation.

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Hmmn - what were you thinking of as the plot, then?

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siskiou.livejournal.com

This story is in my "favorites" folder, and I always find it a fun and engaging read!
Bodie having to stay in prison overnight seemed okay with me in the framework of the story (kind of a punishment for Doyle more than anything, seeing how he got up his "superiors" noses), and Doyle tried hard to get him released and had his reasons for not invoking the fine print. Doyle tries to see Bodie in prison (to explain what's going on, I assume), but Bodie refuses.

Mainly, I love the story for the relationship, and how they both care about each other, despite misunderstandings and jealousy getting in the way.
It really picks up for me when Doyle collects Bodie the next day and during the drive back to London. Bodie, despite being very angry with Doyle, can't help being worried when Doyle is feeling so ill, and there are all sorts of little hints about their background woven into the story.
For example:
************
"No more than you deserve. You do look rough," he conceded flippantly. "Even your mother would be hard pressed to love you now."

She never had at the best of times, but Bodie couldn't know that.
************

I like Bodie's matter of fact way of taking care of his partner, and he reacts very strongly when the reason for Doyle feeling ill comes out during the meeting with Cowley.

In this story, HG's characterization of the lads (and Cowley) work well for me (this isn't always the case, but most of the time).
Cowley not rushing to "save" Bodie from a night in prison doesn't bother me.
I can even see him get a secret chuckle out of it. After all, this is not a place where Bodie is in any danger, and Cowley does trust his agents to be resilient and able to handle themselves.

The little striptease story made me smile, and I loved their getting together for real (and not just a tumble for fun and games).
Nice length, too, for a satisfying read when you don't have time for a longer story! :)

There was the occasional POV switch here and there, but I like to get insight in more than one character's thoughts, so no problem with that for me, unless it's without rhyme or reason.

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Yes, to all this! Exactly how I read it! *vbg*

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I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on the hurt/comfort aspect - maybe it's because Bodie is in a bad mood for a lot of the time he's administering the comfort. But in a way that emphasises how much he really cares. He's mad at Doyle about the redhead, but he doesn't think twice about helping him when he's sick, and as soon as he learns that Doyle was drugged, he's really angry, and is a mother-hen to him for the rest of the evening.

Nice length, too, for a satisfying read when you don't have time for a longer story! Agreed. I never have enough time for reading fic, but it's getting the balance right here, a fic needs to have enough substance to stimulate discussion. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be long, though. I do like a short-ish but layered fic. This one is perfect!

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greengerbil.livejournal.com

as usual,coming late to the party and finding that my thoughts and reactions have already been made/noted, and much more clearly than I ever could...

so I'll just say - yes!

What

byslantedlight and

siskiou said. Even to one of my very favourite bits in what is one of my absolute favourite HG stories being quoted by

siskiou - the little hint of background for Doyle.

I have this fic printed off in hard copy and stored in my 'bedtime reading' file, that's how much I like it!

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jgraeme2007.livejournal.com

HG is one of the writers I really enjoyed when I first entered fandom, and this is one of her more enjoyable stories for me, although as usual I don't think anyone behaves very plausibly and I find the ending off...vaguely disappointing.

If I'm honest, she's a writer I quickly grew impatient with. I find that her pacing is often way off, her endings either too long or too short but rarely on the mark. Her dialog seems to consist of people talking at each other or talking at cross purposes -- it never feels like genuine dialog and it never seems to get to the heart of whatever is being discussed. That's because far too often the plot hinges on one of those ridiculous and elaborate misunderstandings that could be cleared up if the characters had three minutes of ordinary, realistic discussion.

The writing in parts is quite nice, but I just find her generally unsatisfying.

Sorry not to go into greater detail -- I wanted to chime in but we're once more on our way out of town.

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