CI5 hq

I really enjoyed these stories - I didn't find them even "sliding dangerously close" to sentimentality, either! They might have ended up there easily enough, in the hands of a less skillful writer, because the plot involves such soppiness as friendship, Doyle wanting to please Bodie for Christmas, and Bodie actually liking Christmas and appreciating what Doyle does for him - as well, of course, as being in love with him... *g* But it's not plot that makes a story sickly-sentimental, it's the way it's written, and Kirrin, I thought, has the lads deal with it all in an absolutely unsentimental way...

Interesting that the "dark edginess" is seen to come into the story only in Bodie's pov - I actually read it first when Doyle mentioned that something had happened with Jack, but didn't actually explain what it was! And then of course the final line of the first part...

But that whole part of the story did bring an intriguing tension - what had happened, and then is that why Doyle seemed to shy away from Bodie's advances, and then he seems to want to, so can it all be overcome for Bodie's happy-ever-after ending? And all those questions compelled me to keep reading, and then to keep thinking about it after I'd put down the actual pages - and for me that's the sign of a good story, does it stay with you once the words themselves aren't in front of you any more?

On a slight aside - but since the reccer did it, I will too - I've never needed any kind of antidote for Pros at Christmas, I adore thinking of the lads at that time of year, maybe for the same reason I adore thinking of them on holiday. I like seeing them out of their continually action-packed world for a little while, I like seeing them focussed on other things, on how they deal with the mundane (cooking dinner) or the extraordinary (buying baubles for a Christmas tree), what it might all say about their past and how they approach the world now... Oh, and just what they'd choose to do if they took a break from what they had to do! What kind of men are they, behind that CI5 fascade? *g*

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Agreed there is edginess to Doyle's account too. Although for me it was to some extent retrospective - Bodie's account made me revise how I'd read Doyle's, knowing that there was a lot Doyle was keeping out of his normal day-to-day consciousness. He's all practical and getting things done, like in the first scene, where he's busy in Bodie's kitchen,and then enjoying all the doing of the Christmas preparations.

Christmas fic is a bit of a turn off for me, which is unfortunate with there being so much of it. The exchanging presents is usually the most cringemaking, even here, although Kirrin worked hard to make it relevant. Take your point about how Christmas shows the lads in a different setting, but I'd rather have your holiday fics to that end.

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Although for me it was to some extent retrospective
Yes, it mostly was for me too - there was just a slight edginess from the two unanswered questions, contrasting with the lovely normality of the rest of it! I like fic that does that though, makes me re-think assumptions that I'd made earlier in the story in light of new information - it's how the world works, really! *g*

Why do you think Christmas fic is a turn off for you? And the present giving being cringemaking is interesting - does it depend on what the presents are? Does it make a difference whether they're joke-presents or serious presents? I'm trying to think of examples - I like the presents Kirrin chose - motorbike parts for Doyle, and a decent sleeping bag for Bodie - but I do tend to assume that in real life guys wouldn't give each other Christmas presents, or bother with more than the enjoying-food-and-drink-and-laziness side of Christmas... Which could be very, very unfair of me... I don't think the blokes I hung around with at Uni gave each other presents, for example - but then they would mostly have been going home for family Christmases... Which alot of fic assumes that B/D would do too...

I think Kirrin's Christmas presents worked for me because Doyle had made a point of recreating a traditional Christmas for Bodie, which had to include presents in that case - and he'd told Bodie he was getting him a present, so that Bodie then had to get Doyle one... But yeah - very interesting point!

Should I apologise to you in advance for the upcoming Dialj-ness, I wonder? *vbg*

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I just don't like Christmas! A mid-winter celebration with lots of rich food and drink and light and warmth is great, I just don't subscribe to the Christian bit or the over-commercialism. In terms of fic, Christmas fics to me bring out the worst in female writers imposing their own tastes/interests on Pros - baking, putting up decorations, etc. And the present-giving is the most glaring example. I'm sure you're right - blokes would enjoy eating (maybe even cooking), drinking and lounging around watching TV and going to the pub, but not giving each other presents.

Don't apologise! - I'm really looking forward to Pros this Christmas. I'll even volunteer a fic that might possibly contain the word 'Christmas'.

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"...bring out the worst in female writers imposing their own tastes/interests on Pros - baking, putting up decorations..."
Ouch! Years and decades of feminist movement... all in vain??? ;-)

But you're right, Pros and Christmas was something that doesn't fit - in the past. But I get used to it... :-)

And I love Christmas!!! Well, in our family there is no over-commercialism. It's up to you to make the best of it!

Edited Date: 2009-10-23 04:38 pm (UTC)

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In terms of fic, Christmas fics to me bring out the worst in female writers imposing their own tastes/interests on Pros - baking, putting up decorations, etc.
Oh I agree, some do - and this works even less when it's an American Christmas (Don't get me wrong, American Christmases are fun, but they're totally different to UK Christmases, and so they're not the lads!) with the whole egg-nog, Bing-Crosby-style-fireplace-and-a-cabin-in-the-woods-with-snow...

Oh I know what Christmas ones work especially well though - older lads Christmas fics with baking and presents, like Verlaine's Christmas fics, or Larton Christmases, cos older men do go more for preparing their own trappings (strangely enough - I wonder when that change happens! *g* Oh, I wish I was still at Duxford, I could have quizzed the guys there!)

There are definitely Christmas fics that work as well though - of course I can't think of the ones I like best, now... *headdesk* Now that I'm home I shall go and make dinner, see if that prompts me to remember! *g*

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Mince pies, anyone?

Telling the same story from two points of view was great, although not sure why we had only Bodie’s pov for the final part. I was particularly struck by the contrasting language used by the two characters, which helped make the distinction very clear. The contrast was perhaps exaggerated – Doyle sounded more uneducated and uncouth, and Bodie more articulate, than in canon (as I see them). Proust and his madeleines, even!

Two things have caught my eye recently in fic, and both pop up in this one:

(1) Doyle as damaged goods. Suddenly, wherever I turn, in fic both old and new, there’s Doyle, the victim of a deprived and/or abusive upbringing, prickly, defensive, sensitive to criticism, unable to form loving relationships, even depressed (Ailcia’s “Getting to Know You”). And here he is again – the way Doyle acts after going to bed with Bodie seems to be about Unresolved Issues about his abused childhood. At least there is some room for optimism here, that the lads have such a strong relationship as friends that they will work through it in time.

(2) Language – when is it okay, as author, to use the vocabulary you want to use, when it is not certain that the character whose pov is being used would think in those words? When

byslantedlight asked about particular words used in fic in different fandoms here at

ci5hq,

inamac recalled that some British (Commonwealth) writers used to use more ‘big words’. I could relate to that, but is it valid for authors to do?

Maybe this fic isn’t the best example of what I’m thinking about. As above, Kirrin seems to be intentionally giving Bodie an educated, articulate voice (at odds with his ‘piss poor’ childhood?), “things inherently desirable but regrettably unobtainable”, for instance.

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1) Of course, I tend to think that he balance generally runs the other way - I kept hearing and hearing about Bodie's traumatic background, and abused upbringing in fic, and... *headdesk* I was quite relieved to re-read this, where it's the other way around! I suppose really the balance in Prosfic is probably about even, these days, but we probably tend to blink at what we ourselves don't believe... *g*

2) Never! It's never okay! Not if you're writing in the pov of a particular character, because if they wouldn't think that way, then they're not that particular character! And I absolutely agree about their language here being a bit exaggerated and not sounding quite right - I thought they were both a bit well-spoken and... articulate? Or do I just mean "wordy"? Anyway, for me it skated very close to the edge of throwing me out of the story (as they say *g*) but I'm glad I could hang in there!

Of course the complication comes when we all hear them a bit differently in our heads... If we had to stick literally to only the words that B/D use in the eps, they'd be far too limited, so you've got to move them on a bit - and I quite liked the flashes of Bodie's education and background (I could go with that, despite his "piss poor background", cos he does quote poetry in the eps, and joke to Cowley about being uneducated in a way that suggested he clearly was, though the madeleines again came a bit close to the edge for me!

Hmmn - mind you, if they're talking like that in their head I can go with it more, it's when authors make them speak out loud using unebelievable language that I cringe, because they don't! (And I always worry hugely that I give them too many "Well"s, and other things that are more my mannerisms than theirs, too!)

I think this fic is an excellent example of what you're talking about though - some of O.Yardley's later stories might also be good examples, perhaps?

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"if they're talking like that in their head I can go with it more, it's when authors make them speak out loud using unbelievable language that I cringe," Me too.

But then, with the character's thoughts, people don't think in coherent sentences and big words (or is it just me?), so writing from a character's pov, in their thoughts, should be stream-of-consciousness. But that would be difficult to read. So it is simpler to make their thoughts on a similar register to their speech.

I thought Kirrin did that well here, esp. for Doyle. oh, I know why (she says, stream-of-consciousness style) - this fic is sort of narrative - each is telling a story about things that happened, past tense, so they would tell it in the words they use when speaking.

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"Mince pies, anyone?
Yes, please! :-)

(1) I think I've read more fics where Bodie is the 'damaged goods'. Sounds more likely for many people, probably because of his 'running away'. So I liked this version here! Having a sheltered background till the age of 12 would declare his personality a bit. I see him quite happy and at easy with himself in the episodes (no matter the dark sides of his past and his present job) - more at ease than Ray in any case...

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oh yes, there is just as much, if not more, of tendency for Bodie to be given the deprived background, so I do welcome discovering fic where it is the other way around (but poor Ray! I hate to think of him being hurt as a child).

There is also the fic where Ray has a big happy family and Bodie has none. That can be cloying too - esp. when Doyle's large family is combined with Christmas (gnashes teeth).

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"Which thought was the start of the gret 'Give Bodie a proper Christmas Dinner' campain."
For me it wasn't too sentimental at all.
There is always that .... hmmm... 'contemplating distance', that 'watching it with a twinkle in the narrator’s eye', if you know what I mean?
And even the first sentence is everything else than sentimental:
"It was, without any doubt whatsoever, the most pathetic thing I had ever seen in my entire fucking life."

I love it when a story is told from different POVs! I never get bored when I hear the same story 'twice', because there are always new aspects.
Here we have the sudden end of the Doyle part: "Then the bastard had to go and spoil it all."
And we are damn curious what Ray means - because everything was so 'cosy' up until now.
But in Bodie's part we learn that HIS cognition(?) of the whole affair is completely different:
And once I realised that, I started to do the one thing life teaches you never to do - I started to hope."
Sigh! I don't know... I don't think that there will be a happy ending for Bodie. Maybe it's even impossible to keep the friendship? Being at the receiving end of admiration is nothing for Ray's bad temper, - and Bodie is no one to suffer silently for ever. I dunno...

A very good and satisfying story - even with that open end.
Yes! Something to think about...

Thanks for rec!

(Already time for X-Mas icons? :-))

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I liked both parts. I liked that Doyle was conivving to give Bodie a proper Christmas. I have no problem with either of the lads getting sentimental at Christmas because that's what it's about. Family, friends, being together. To me at least. I don't have a clue if this is a traditional English Christmas, so I'm happy to admit I enjoyed it whether or not it's perfectly portrayed. So I'm accepting the story as is, sweet and enjoyable.

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We are having Christmas early, or at least thoughts of Christmas. (passes the mince pies) Maybe starting now will help inspire this year's Pros Christmas creativity?

"I don't have a clue if this is a traditional English Christmas." To which my response is that everyone's idea of what makes Christmas is different anyway. Look how many family arguments there are about just how it should be done. The point here is Doyle, as you say, conniving to find out what made his childhood Christmas for *Bodie*. If he cares that much, I'm optimisitc for their future in this fic.

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I'm more sensitive lately since I'm not British. I've noticed that now I tend to be more restrictive (and even a bit hesitant) in my writing since it seems to be a sore point when everything in a story isn't perfectly related to all things British. My problem, though. I'll work through it. Or not. *g*

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"I've noticed that now I tend to be more restrictive (and even a bit hesitant) in my writing since it seems to be a sore point when everything in a story isn't perfectly related to all things British."
Oh no! Please! That would mean to be more Catholic than the Pope...!
Being 'hesitant' can't be good. Isn't it enough when you have a good Brit check when you're ready? And just think of all the non-Brits among your readers! :-)

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Don't worry! I'm fine. I have two Brit betas, plus an overall beta, who read everything I write. It's the best I can do with what I have to work with. *me* LOL!

I appreciate every single one of my wonderful readers. Most of them know what to expect from me, esp. the ones who've read my stuff from as far back as 2001. They know it will be generally romantic, happy ending kind of stuff.

Anyway, back to the story which I enjoyed.

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shooting2kill.livejournal.com

It would be a terrible shame for you to feel inhibited or restricted in your writing so please don't feel that way! I don't write at all so I'm very grateful to anyone who does.

Edited Date: 2009-10-25 08:10 pm (UTC)

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