CI5 hq

You can tell I'm not into h/c. I thought it was very odd that Doyle was waltzing around the bath with this bowl of aromatic stuff, like some ancient Egyptian slave, and then Bodie was having a nice soothing nap, until eventually it dawned on me - it's h/c! Made more sense then. *g*

I agree it was an easy read, great fun. Thanks for your thoughts.

From:

I agree. A nice story.
And I can't help to love this part too:
"Grated ginger root." He proceeded to toss it into the hot water, causing the sharp smell of it to intensify. He stirred it around well, testing the water, and when the tub was full, he ordered, "Get in."
"In that?" Bodie protested. "What am I, the main ingredient in soup?"
*sniggers*

But there is also a lost chance with the story around Cowley's replacement and the fact that Bodie and Doyle are still going on to work 'undercover' for him.
It's IMO a good plot idea, and again it is sacrificed for 'first time' number 1786... Suddenly everything else seems to be forgotten.
And why not 'both'?

From:

"But there is also a lost chance ..."

Yeah, the elaborate set up of Cornell, and Bodie keeping in touch with Cowley, gets dropped once they are on this op. The only bit that rounds that off is Doyle explaining that the guy they pulled in had given them wrong intelligence to make CI5 look stupid, implying Cornell was so useless he had fallen for it.

Looking at the bigger picture, if Cowley had been in charge, they would not have ended up sitting around all evening in gay bars in sexy leather jackets and jeans, so the situation where Bodie discovers he loves Doyle would never have happened. So it was all thanks to Cornell, really. :)

From:

"Looking at the bigger picture, if Cowley had been in charge, they would not have ended up sitting around all evening in gay bars in sexy leather jackets and jeans, so the situation where Bodie discovers he loves Doyle would never have happened. So it was all thanks to Cornell, really. :)"
Oh, I don't know. Even Cowley gives them stupid missions now and then... :-)

And I really think that it's a pity that this chance was passed up (can I say so?). Or are there many other stories with a similiar plot?

From:

Maybe DVS ran out of mileage on Cornell, about what else he could do in the plot?

It did seem a bit odd leaving Cowley in hospital, taking no further part.

Agreed, it would be interesting to know if there are any other fics with an acting Controller.

From:

siskiou.livejournal.com

Sounds to me like the sole reason Cornell was created, was to be a fool, so Bodie could be presented in jeans and leather in a gay bar.

I would have like to see how the other agents fared, too, and have to admit to getting a bit bored with the repetitive "another guy comes on to Bodie and gets rejected" routine after a while.

From:

Hee - I have a leather jacket icon for this fic! *g*

I've read this before and enjoyed it, but I find I'm struggling a bit with it this time - it's reading more - I don't know, Starsky and Hutch to me than B/D... Sort of American-cop-show-comedy, somehow... Cornell has a definite American accent in my head for some reason - the arrangement of his words? Or maybe it was because he started off with a podium and a total arse...

Not quite convinced at the plot - though I know it's supposed to be ludicrous. But why would it be difficult to wear a shoulder holster under an open leather jacket? The lads wear practically nothing but open leather jackets in the eps, in a variety of styles! And eep - £200 leather jackets? Back then?

Oh, and vacation... a holiday, please! It was almost a holiday! And she has class? *headdesk* Argh - autumn!, not "fall"! And Cowley had insured he wouldn't remain in ignorance? Wonder how much that cost him... Can you tell I'm commenting as I read..? *g*

Fun banter though - "People will talk" - "Only about how your taste has improved"... I can totally hear them both, there! *g*

Starsky and Hutch might eat "pastries" and drink coffee in the car on the way to work, B/D have never been seen doing that... (Drinking coffee in the car on the way to work isn't really done over here - much to my sorrow, I do miss those little drive-through coffee huts!) And "pastries" aren't bought, named or eaten like that either...

I like the bitching about the terrorists who weren't there, and the lack of back up - that rings very true! And I love the idea of Cowley planting fake bombs in the stationery supplies to catch them all out! *g*

Ah, it's set no later than second season then, if Doyle's only had his tooth chipped for a year...

And there - finished! First time fics are always fun - it adds some tension - and I liked the way Bodie suddenly saw Doyle during the fight - beautiful when he's being violent! The "bartender" bit was very stereotyped though, and - oh, so much of it was...

I'm a bit torn - there were some fun bits, but it could have done with a good Brit-check and beta, including for spelling and typos... I think in my head I'm comparing it with Leslie Conch's Fly on the Wall, which was even more riddled with Americanisms but somehow managed to pull off being comedy B/D and getting the lads together for the first time as well. I wince at her blatant Americanisms, but the rest of it was clever enough and sharp enough and, perhaps, original enough that she gets away with it for me. I'm busier being interested in what's going on, with FotW, whereas here I'm wincing not just at the Americanisms, but at plot-holes and stereotypes as well... Which sounds like I think it's a bad fic, and I don't at all! Just... I really really wish it'd been better betad... *g*

From:

Absolutely. I got snagged by Americanisms, but found the banter spot on.
After grimacing at coffee and pastries for breakfast, I was quite thrown by Bodie's jeans in the drawer of his bureau -he may only own one pair, but why keep them in the writing desk?
But after that I didn't notice any more of them - probably due to my lack of familiarity with the vocab of pubs/gay bars, on either side of the pond.

Interesting to compare this with 'Fly on the Wall', there's quite a lot in common - but I liked 'Precisely When' much better. It is *slightly* more realistic, less contrived, and everyone comes out looking good, except Cornell.

From:

emmamydog11.livejournal.com

I agree with both sc_fossil and firlefanzine and no I'm not trying to sit on the fence.

My initial reaction was here we go again yet another 1st time story. After 30 years of Pros surely writers can move on from 1st time love and get into action plot with the closeness of b/d as the the backdrop. I always enjoy those stories where the characters have moved on.

That said I did enjoy the story for the fun that was in ii particularly the bar scene and Bodie's increasing awareness of Doyle's attractiveness (what took him so long we all ask!)

Then we go back to the start of the story which really was the MacGuffin to the bar scene but had it been developed with Cowley on the sick list and an idiot running CI5 could have turned this story from light fun entertainment into a story with an interesting plot and potentially more of an episode feel.

From:

"My initial reaction was here we go again yet another 1st time story."
Obviously there is a great 'need' for 1st time love among both, Pros readers and writes. I respect that and I don't really mind it, - as long as it's convincing and as long as there is 'more' to a story I enjoy it too. That ‘lightning strike moment’ is quite 'nice', but IMO not enough for a good story. And the end here reminds me of a Hollywood movie: Happy End - cut! Why was there no development of the 'Cowley plot'???

" After 30 years of Pros surely writers can move on from 1st time love and get into action plot with the closeness of b/d as the the backdrop. I always enjoy those stories where the characters have moved on.
Exactly. There is so much potential in an established relationship as a background for the danger and the imponderability of their job.

And even without action... - what did I read recently...? Yes: Someone tries to blackmail B+D with faked pictures. And Cowley just sais 'admit it, even if it's not true'. That was a fantastic scene!
Or another one: Doyle's stepmother tries to 'cure' Bodie from 'being gay' by showing him what a 'real woman' can do to a man... :-)

I mean, it's sometimes indeed refreshing to be beyond 1st time love problems!

From:

I do agree with you (both) in liking stories where the lads' established relationship is the background to the plot.

But I'll defend DVS by arguing that, going by the title, the first time was the whole point of this fic. It's not just any old fic, where the writer has chucked in a 'first time' to sex it up. The whole point is to chronicle the exact moment they first fall in love/lust, as the recc notes. Years later, they will remember 'precisely when' - it was that pub fight on that stupid op when Cowley was away, and Bodie's jeans were too tight...
And that's quite original, because there must be just as many fics (more even) where they couldn't be precise, it's just gradual.

Having said that, it only seems to be the 'precisely when' moment for Bodie. Doyle seems to be bi and this probably isn't new to him- he's calm enough.

And if the first time was the whole point, why did we need all the background about what was going on in Cowley's absence?
ooh, I know, Bodie was disoriented without Cowley around and that put him in an unusual frame of mind...

From:

I think it's about 'expectations'...
"...the first time was the whole point of this fic... Years later, they will remember 'precisely when'"
Expecting a '1st time fic', you are happy with the happy ending in bed.
I had no idea what will come, and I thought after the first few passages - 'Oh, a nice idea with Cowley in hospital...'. Then there was the banter between the colleagues, the leather jackets, the gay bar, the bartender, the fight, the ‘lightning strike moment’, the first time - nice!!! (IMO much better than Fly On the Wall!) - but that all was for me just an episode for a longer story, and in my expectations there was this story how CI5 copes with Cowley's absence. And B+D being lovers would give an extra spice to that subject!!!
So I was just disappointed with that abrupt ending! ...story interruptus! :-)

From:

"story interruptus" lol!

Clearly this fic needs a sequel...

From:

After 30 years of Pros surely writers can move on from 1st time love and get into action plot with the closeness of b/d as the the backdrop.
To be fair to DVS, this was only written about 10 years after the series aired, so... *g*

I dunno though, I suspect that after 30 years we've run out of most original plots - there'll be someone out there who's done almost anything (though how skilfully is another matter entirely...) If we say "we're bored with first-time stories", then why not say "we're bored with post-DiaG stories", or "we're bored with Bodie-in-the-jungle-backstories" or any of it, really?

For me it's as much about the individual writing, and what the author can show me about the world that's unique to their idea of the B/D and CI5 universes, as it is about the overall theme/plot etc of "first time" or "established relationship" or "political intrigue" or "kidnapping gone wrong" or whatever. It's what an author can do with those plots that makes the difference between whether I want to read it or not. And as an author, even one who generally things I'll-write-what-I-want, if I see enough people saying "I'm bored with first-time" then the next time I sit down to write and fancy using that theme I'll perhaps get up again, make a cup of coffee, and switch on the telly instead - no writing at all!

So, to get back to PW, what DVS did here was slightly Americanise the lads (which turned me off the story) but also showed us a slightly different twist to the undercover-gay theme, and a very nice view of what Bodie appreciates in Doyle (the way he moves when he fights and how that encapsulates his whole character!). I could have done without the first, but I enjoyed the rest of it well enough that I kept reading - and not every author can hold me any more!

From:

I absolutely agree about the individual writing! There are probably 100 different stories when 100 people write about one subject. So there should be no anxiety for the future of Pros writing! :-)

" If we say "we're bored with first-time stories", then why not say "we're bored with post-DiaG stories", or "we're bored with Bodie-in-the-jungle-backstories" or any of it, really?"
The difference is just that you got the impression that every second story is a 'first time'!
That's just a guess - maybe it's even more?
I've took a short look, - so don't blame me if I'm wrong -, for the Reading Room it's about 18/11.

From:

The difference is just that you got the impression that every second story is a 'first time'!
That's just a guess - maybe it's even more?
Well, I might be biased cos I'm quite fond of first-time stories. I like the tension of them, the will-it-work-out, and they tend to be relationship-focussed, which is what I'm interested in, in Pros - the B/D relationship. Interesting ops, moral dilemmas and so on are interesting too - but I want the B/D relationship to be what the story's about, so... *g*

Be interesting to go through a single author, actually, and work out what percentage of their fic is first time... Hmmn - roughly going through my fic posted at Hatstand, I get 11/27 as first-time fics... less than half, but a fair number...

I guess it depends what importance people are putting on the B/D relationship, perhaps, what aspect of Pros they're intereted in, in the first place...

From:

I'm also relationship-focussed. But there is more to it than riding together into the sunrise!

I’m just reading a fantastic first time story. Souls Surrender by Amanda Warrington - and I enjoy it very much. As I’ve told before: I love good first time stories!

But I don’t think that it is necessary to 'reduce' each and every subject to the glory of their first smashing copulation and coalescence.
Like in this story! And another bad example is IMO Holding Back The Flood. A very stirring story where that first time adds a new dimension and kills the intensity of the real theme.

You said above that such comments may influence your ingenuous writing. That’s absolutely not my intention. But the Reading Room should be a place where we can talk about our feelings for a story.
And I’m wondering if readers ‘needs’ for first times has influenced authors much much more!?

From:

Sorry for the delay in replying - it was a busy weekend!

There's definitely more to relationships that the happy-ending-riding-off-into-the-sunset, but I don't think that means that first time stories are any less than other relationship fics just by virtue of being first-time stories... And I don't think it's any kind of "reduction" to write a first time story...

What can happen is that a writer doesn't manage to actually write a first time story - they write a different kind of story (as this one seems to start out) and they don't marry the first-time theme well with the other themes. But that's nothing to do with the merits of first-time or not, it's to do with the skill of a writer...

I adore "Holding Back the Flood", and to me the fact that it was a first-time story is an integral part of the plot. The intensity between the lads in that situation wouldn't have been there if there hadn't been that (so-far) unfulfilled potential to their relationship. It's interesting that you don't see the sexual fulfillment of their relationship as any kind of "real theme" though. Sex isn't just titillation and pleasure, it affects so much more of our lives because it affects our emotions so strongly... What can seem on the surface completely unrelated to any sexual desire for someone else, can in fact be deeply entwined with it - and no "less" for that... People do things as a result of that sexual twist that they would perhaps never do otherwise, and then it gives it extra meaning, not a lesser meaning...

You said above that such comments may influence your ingenuous writing.
Lol - I'm assuming you don't mean my naive writing, which is what "ingenuous" is generally used to mean! *g* I wasn't saying "don't talk about" anything - I'd never say that! What I was saying was that I know authors are influenced by the kind of stark comment that you made: "again it is sacrificed for 'first time' number 1786". In my opinion it's not the fact that it's a first time story that makes the ending seem a bit "tacked on" (and I agree, it does) - it's that we didn't have any hint of Bodie's desire earlier in the fic, or of Doyle's willingness. A single sentence/phrase might have meant the ending had a very different impact! So it'd be a shame if writers were put off writing first-time fic, when all they need to do is to write it well!

From:

krisserci5.livejournal.com

My initial reaction was here we go again yet another 1st time story. After 30 years of Pros surely writers can move on from 1st time love and get into action plot with the closeness of b/d as the the backdrop.

I never tire of first times. I enjoy the why of how they pass through the barrier. Usually established relationship stories have jealousy or miscommunication and I find that tedious.

Luckily enough folk write both so aren't starved for our view.

From:

shooting2kill.livejournal.com

I’ve never come across this story before and I *almost* didn’t read it this time as I hate reading online but as it wasn’t too long I thought I’d give it a go and I’m so glad I did because I loved it. Why? I thought it was very funny without overdoing the humour and running the risk of a funny story becoming a tedious story; I liked the way the writer took a familiar theme (maybe it wasn’t that familiar when the story was written around 1993? Dunno....) of Bodie and Doyle in a gay club and gave it a refreshing slant; I loved the way she/he managed to keep Bodie (and Doyle) completely in character (despite the situation they were in) with Bodie responding in typical deadpan, funny and semi-tough, Bodie-like manner, itching to take a poke at someone (it’s how I imagined Bodie *would* behave in that kind of situation); and I loved his just-under-the-surface indignation and annoyance at the whole situation and his realisation of what it must be like to be on the wrong end of the traditional male-female chat-up situation.

But if I had one tiny quibble it would be with the aftermath of the fight scene and the (too) rapid realisation of their mutual feelings. I loved being shown in words like the following how Bodie really feels for Ray:

In action, Ray Doyle was poetry. He was fast, smooth, deadly....
Something odd happened to Bodie as he sagged against the wall, watching his partner. His eyes were on the wild curls, on the flashing leather-clad arms and the smooth action of the long legs and booted feet, and a thought came to him.
He's beautiful

But I don’t need it spelt out for me:

Love/want/need/adore...Ray Doyle?

And I felt that up until that point I was enjoying the working-it-out-for-myself via subtle hints and clues and I wanted that situation to carry on for as long as possible! I'd rather be shown by the actions of the characters rather than told by the writer that they’re falling in love. And - this is a general thing which I've noticed in lots of stories - I'm often surprised (and disappointed) when a writer who has, up to a certain point, written plausible, realistic characters, suddenly has them declaring mutual love or suchlike when a minute before they'd just been two ordinary working 'blokes'. Suddenly realising that they’re sexually attracted to each other? Definitely. Sexually charged and lusting for each other? Definitely. *Really* liking and needing each other. Yup. But two macho men suddenly thinking or talking of 'love' (specifically) either to themselves or to each other I find hard to accept.

But as I’ve said, it’s just a small quibble in a really nice story and I want to thank the person who recommended it as I probably would never have read it otherwise and I'm grateful! (And apologies if there's a lot of repetition in what I've said but I haven't had a chance to read all the other comments yet).

Edited Date: 2009-10-09 01:12 pm (UTC)

From:

Yay, a satisfied customer!

I like your description of Bodie in the bar. One thing I really enjoyed was seeing a lot of this as vividly as if in an ep, like Bodie sliding down the wall.

As I was defending DVS above, I could add that the line you quoted, as spelling it out, is necessary to fit the author's plan to show "precisely when". The result may seem contrived, as in artistic licence.

From:

shooting2kill.livejournal.com

As I was defending DVS above, I could add that the line you quoted, as spelling it out, is necessary to fit the author's plan to show "precisely when". The result may seem contrived, as in artistic licence.

Yup, I did think of that and probably agree with you about 90% but there's still something in me which wonders if she couldn't have pulled that bit off as subtly as the rest. Pretty hard I expect but I wonder....

And yes, her characterisation, banter and action were so good that it was just like an episode!

Very glad I've read it.

Edited Date: 2009-10-09 03:10 pm (UTC)

From:

I do like the scenario, it's fun and original – an acting Controller who’s a posh git. He must be bad to have everyone longing for Cowley’s return! And Cowley has set up a hot line to Bodie, which means a lot to Bodie. This fits my view of the Cowley-Bodie relationship very nicely, thank you.

And Cowley’s little tests, planting surprises in the office stationery deliveries – hee! I think DVS likes Cowley.

Ten CI5 agents in matching leather jackets. hee again!

And then it’s the old gay bar scenario, ho hum. But the fight that breaks out, and it isn’t even Bodie’s fault, lifts it. Doyle is sensational – that's a great description of Doyle the avenging angel.

What do other people think about POV in this? It is just a narrative voice until Bodie is on his own getting ready to go out to the bar, and from then on it’s Bodie POV, which is a bit odd.

From:

heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com

Very interesting comments up there, and firlefanzine and byslantedlight have already mentioned my favourite individual lines about people only noticing Bodie's taste improving and the "ingredient in soup" bit *g*. It's funny, DVS has a certain something about her style, a sort of low-key matter-of-factness, something presenting itself as bald, unadorned description while actually conveying a lot of atmosphere. I find myself really liking this style - more so in The Flat, say, than here, but it's here too (just not quite so well-realised as in her other stories). Does anyone happen to know whether this was one of her earlier stories, perhaps? It feels as if it might be, for several reasons. Some of her stories are very long and extremely well plotted, and this, as people have pointed out, seems to set up a plot which it then doesn't take all the way (as the CI5 agent said to the other CI5 agent). So I wondered if she might have originally intended to write a longer, plottier tale but later decided to stick to a shorter, tighter focus resulting in the wish-there-were-more feeling. Also, I think she doesn't have so many/any(???) brit-pick problems in other fics - again, maybe this is an earlier one. Just wondering. It is in need of brit-picking as bsl says, but I still find it funny and delightful - perhaps because I think this situation (with Cornell, Cowley "underground", Doyle and all his attributes) is rich and the humour is light; it just works well for me. And at least we haven't got anyone getting drinks brought to them at the table in a pub, or people running up a tab when they aren't even 20-year regulars! *g*

I really like the sex scene here, and Bodie's thoughts about the size of Ray's dick *bg*. And I'm surprised that Bodie is quite so docile/dazed/compliant after that little punch-up (though mainly, of course, it's the revelation of his own feelings that has him so gobsmacked he's in a daze) but it's ... rather charming, I think! (what's not to love about a gobsmacked Bodie, after all).

Bother, I thought I had some sensible things I wanted to say before getting back to work, but these disjointed rambles are all I can manage ::sigh:: - still, I enjoy this fic with all its imperfections; the fight scene vision of Ray, and Bodie getting thumped by accident in an ordinary-mortal sort of way - it's all very vivid, and, well, the dynamic between them both before and after getting into bed grabs me just right! Thanks for proposing it for the reading room!

From: