Reading Room: Velvet Underground, by Sebastian

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Title: Velvet Underground
Author: Sebastian
Links: Oblique Publications

Rec: I volunteered to rec this fic after someone had recced Kitty Fisher's Monopoly I think, because there was discussion about what was good bdsm, and whether it fit into B/D's lives and so on. It eventually occurred to me, after the discussion (of course!) that Velvet Underground brings bdsm into the lads lives in a way that is completely believable to me, not because the author explains that it fits in with their lives in this way, or that they need it because of that, but because she builds up the atmosphere of needing it so beautifully - or rather, the atmosphere of being tempted by it, of being dragged out of the mundanities of everyday life where pain is a very solid and unpleasant thing, and transforms that. She doesn't spend time examining the realities of it all (what would it feel like to be whipped, well surely it would hurt, so why would you want to?) - she assumes that we can work that bit out for ourselves. Sebastian does what every author I adore does - she takes us beyond what we can work out for ourselves.

She doesn't tell us, for example, that the bells trimming the cloak Doyle wears are very old, she tells us that "they could have been a long time buried in mud under flowing water", which is a completely different thing - it takes the concept of time and age, and the information about the cloak, and it adds something to it, so that we're right there with Sebastian's/Doyle's extra twist of thought, we're starting to feel what they feel - we're escaping our own world, being pulled along to somewhere... more interesting.

And then Sebastian shakes this strange magic from us - we're still in the CI5 world after all, after the op - Doyle was undercover, it's just a job, and when it's over he's wearing a lemon-yellow t-shirt, and Bodie is lazing back eating the toasted cheese sandwich presented to him by Doyle with what we just know is a bad French accent. It's almost a bit jarring, this separation of the two atmospheres, the first very dark a bit unsettling - just as Doyle said he was - and then back to the ordinary. But then - and this is one of my favourite lines in any fic ever - "The devil stepped into the room and stood looking, interested."

The next section is made disturbing in the way that the two worlds are brought together - there's no "magic" but there's not "ordinary" either - there are two men choosing to take their lives away from the norm, away from anything soft and romantic, just because... they're tempted. And we feel the way they've been tempted, the way that their usual teasing and challenging of each other is twisted into this direction, we're not given reason for it, we're given the way it feels instead. We're given Bodie rising to the challenge of something we're told he's horrified by, all of his shame and anger blazing like a torch, burning the last hope of salvation away. We're given Doyle who has already been tempted too far as we saw in the first scene, a terrible desperation, a mad dervish dancing wildly in his eyes., not knowing whether he wants to be stopped, or he wants to be taken all the way to the end.

And they both give in.

This is something else I've been thinking about (again, with the debate over warnings, and the furore over the last season of Torchwood etc) - when a writer gives us characters who aren't perfect, who are not just flawed in a way that makes us want to make it all better, but who are flawed in a way that makes us know we should dislike them, somehow, or threatens to take away our adoration because the flaw is... too real. In Velvet Underground, the lads choose something dark and almost sordid - and they don't choose it and then tell each other how much they love each other anyway, they are both discomfitted by it, they're disturbed and yet they're not strong enough to deny themselves either, to "do the right thing". They might be lying hand in hand at the end, and equals once more - a little bit of comfort for us - but the two worlds have become one, and while there's a touch of desire and dark magic still, the stormswept world of depravity where the Master now ruled, there's also a reminder that they have to live in both worlds as one now, And that was the end of innocence.

I'm really curious to know how other people read this story - I could talk about what I now find a slightly odd characterisation of Doyle by Sebastian too (which took me a long time to recognise, in fact) or about all sorts of other things to do with this fic, but mostly I think it's a fic about how things feel rather than what happens, and about the way feelings and reality have to come together in the end... Or is that me, trying to get too deep? *g*

What did anyone else think, before I witter on for eternity?

Comments

Velvet Underground Link At Sebastian's Site

[(Anonymous)]

Here's the link to the story at Sebastian's site, for those who might not know she has her own website or how dislike reading from a PDF. Sebastian's site has the stories in html format.

Also, Sebastian includes brief author notes for each story, always interesting to read. The note for Velvet Underground explains the inspiration for the story, nothing that I would consider overly-determinate in setting a path for this story discussion.

Re: Velvet Underground Link At Sebastian's Site

[(Anonymous)]

And I hit post before the link!

Velvet Underground - Sebastian's Site
http://www.zeropanic.net/fanfic/sebastian/pros/velvet-underground.htm

Sebastian's Site - Pros Stories
http://www.zeropanic.net/fanfic/sebastian/pros/index.shtml

Re: Velvet Underground Link At Sebastian's Site

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

nothing that I would consider overly-determinate in setting a path for this story discussion.
Jolly good, because I'm afraid I'm one of those people who doesn't necessarily think that an author's thoughts or intentions are what fuels a story once it's been read by someone else... *g* I did remember that Sebastian had story notes up, but I was hoping primarily to talk about the fic itself, rather than Sebastian herself, and I think reading author commentary does rather turn a discussion to the author rather than anything else - not that it's not interesting too, so if people would rather do that, that's fine as well... *g*

What do you think of the story itself?

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

The frustration of it - hours and hours of work and RL to go before I can indulge in this very indulgent fic and your very interesting review.

Thanks very much, anon., for the link to Sebastian's website, I didn't know of that.

Help yourselves to the tea and cake.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I admit I was a bit put off by the insistence of how horrible what they were doing was. The writer seemed to be determined to let me know that neither man could help themselves in this situation. Almost forcing each other to do it, yet hating it every second.

I prefer stronger characters who know what they want and aren't ashamed to admit it. The image of Doyle in high heeled shiny boots put a Flamenco dancer (actually more Eddie Izzard!) in my head and I couldn't get rid of it. So not how I see or want to see Doyle.

Thanks for the review.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

neither man could help themselves in this situation. Almost forcing each other to do it, yet hating it every second.
Yes, and that's something I rather like about it - I have trouble with characters who have no flaws, to be honest, because I don't believe there's a single person in the world who's that perfect, and so I rather like a little self-doubt and worry, especially against something that was very much against the mores of the time.

In fact I'd find it harder to believe in a Bodie and Doyle who did know exactly what they wanted (each other, bdsm) and weren't ashamed to admit it, because I think that would probably have been incredibly rare amongst men of their generation - maybe not inside themselves, but because they would be struggling to keep it secret in order to fit in with society, and because there's nothing canon in the eps about it - and if it's not there, then they must be keeping it a secret, and if they're keeping it a secret then it could very plausibly be because they're unsure in some way. To me that's really interesting - the struggle against ourselves. Watching someone going out and taking what they want is... I sort of think good for them, but it's as if there's no need for me to follow their story any more, you know?

And hee for Doyle as Eddie! To me his surroundings were far too dark to make him Eddie though, the heels were more Cossack-like (probably helped by Sebastian describing him as Cossack-like!), riding boots rather than stilettos... *g*

[scherwood]

I'm afraid I don't like this text at all. I like sebastian very much, but this text is really painful to read, and I don't get anything out of it... except a aching gut and teary eyes.

I don't like this Doyle that sebastian writes, and Bodie is just to weak for my taste... I like plots and story twists, but the most important thing for me is the characters and what they feel and think... and this time I just couldn't buy into the characters at all. It was like I wasn't reading about Bodie and Doyle at all, but two other characters that I didn't know...

The plot about the darker side and bdsm is good and believable. I like how sebastian tell us about it from the darker side and how it can grab hold of you and change you... and all the thoughts about that... but I still would have liked it more if sebastian had wrote about some original characters instead of B&D.

Thank you for recomending this. If nothing else I got to experience some new emotions attached to a fanfic... and I always look at stuff like this with interrest, even if I didn't like it. *hugs*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Aww - I had a feeling you might not, actually... *g*

So - why is it that you couldn't believe the characters? What is it about them that you find out of character from the eps? And why did you find Bodie weak? I didn't get that impression of either of them, except that they gave in to that one, lustful temptation...

I see Bodie and Doyle as both having weaknesses in the eps (I probably wouldn't have liked them if they didn't) - Doyle has the worst temper, for example, and Bodie can be very pig-headed about things, and also irresponsible over work. And they're also very sexual, and very close to each other, so I can see them giving in to something like bdsm if it was presented the right way to them...

but I still would have liked it more if sebastian had wrote about some original characters instead of B&D
So you mostly just don't like the idea of Bodie and Doyle playing with bdsm?

ETA - also meant to say sorry for not answering sooner - I got home from work to find the storms had cut out our internet again. It's not been back until this morning!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

is the idea that the Lads were moving toward a normal (or in the vernacular -- vanilla) loving relationship but not there yet
Oh, which bits made you think this? I'm not sure I had that impression at all...

I also don't believe that one or t'other of them wouldn't have stopped / redirected the dark side of the relationship rather than ruin what they both seemed to feel they were working toward.
But they were tempted away from that - even though they could see darker things there, the temptation was too great... So you think that at least one of them should have stayed on the "good" side? Why don't you believe they would have gone that way?

The coda is interesting isn't it, that you can't quite work out which is which in the ending... I tend to think it was Bodie the Master still, as it seems to be alternating povs, if nothing else, and it would fit very much with the way we'd started out with Doyle's dark temptation - and this is what became of it... But it doesn't have to be that at all... I guess this would be something to go and find out about at Sebastian's own website!

Sorry about the delay in replying too, the storms here knocked out my internet, so once I'd left work I couldn't get back online until this morning...

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

This was one of the first Pros fics I read, so I've had to re-read it. And of course I respond to it differently now.

The musical inspiration I would gladly do without. The Velvet Underground lp is one of my treasured possessions, but this just doesn't match my image of 'Venus in Furs'. At least I didn't think so, but now I think the coda actually does have some of that song about it.

I like best the way Sebastian creates such a strong mood and atmosphere. It doesn't seem realistic, almost fantasy, rather overwrought, but it is stylish.

I like least the idea that Doyle's sexuality could be permanently changed by his relatively brief experience on an undercover op. And Bodie's by one experiment (surely, the coda describes "the dark unmentionable sin" from the past they can't talk about but can't escape). Still it is all good for the doom-laden gothic effect.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - I didn't react to the "musical inspiration" because I don't know the music at all... interesting that you think there are echoes of it though - perhaps Sebastian mentions this at her website?

I like least the idea that Doyle's sexuality could be permanently changed by his relatively brief experience on an undercover op.
Well, I'm not sure that it was a "relatively brief" experience - it's not specified in the fic how long the case took, is it? And that said, I do think that we can be very much changed by very very brief experiences, especially if there are other reasons something might affect us. Doyle is generally described as quite sexually aware in this fic, I think - Sebastian seems to see him as very sexual/hedonistic in all her stories, actually - so if the undercover op introduced him to a new way to explore that hedonism, I can see him giving in to it - enjoying it in fact.

I tend to think that the "dark unmentionable sin" was just the two of them having sex together, and the fact that they've not discussed it or dealt with it since, so that the sexual tension between them has perhaps continued to build... so again, I can see that they're becoming sexually charged enough - and are perhaps both repressed enough, in not dealing with that - that it might come out in something darker, like this...

It sounds as if you think it was very consciously written for effect too, which I also suspect it was, and I'm quite curious about the way our tastes (generic "our") seem to have changed over the years - writing seems to be getting sparser and sparser in some ways, and in contrast alot of the older writing does seem rather "overwrought" and for "effect"... I quite like this though, I don't find it "purple", just as you say very atmospheric, and I miss that in alot of more recently written fic, because I do like to be able to feel where I am as well as see it...

Sorry for the delayed response - I got home last night to find the storms had knocked out our internet, only just got back on this morning!

[jj-minerva.livejournal.com]

I’m not sure I really understand this story. I have more questions than answers. My main one is, are Bodie and Doyle already lovers? The answer to that would impact on how I would interpret the story, but I can’t work it out. They are lounging on Doyle’s bed together so I was presuming they were, but the sex/rape scene seemed to indicate they weren’t.

There were many things that I found disturbing about this story and I found it hard to follow. The writing itself was so ‘lyrical’ that I lost track of the story amid the prose.

I can’t understand Bodie’s anger. To my way of thinking he’d be more inclined to laugh about Doyle’s lingering involvement/interest in BDSM. We know Bodie has an irreverent sense of humour and I think he’d find the whole situation quite funny and tease Doyle to no end. [I’ve actually used Bodie’s reaction of laughter to a BDSM bust in a fic I am currently writing]

Doyle in a cape with rusty bells on the hemline? Well, I’m sure there’s someone out there who might find that hot, but to me it almost comic.

I also can’t accept the idea that: Doyle brooded and did not forget. Certain telling little events made Bodie uncomfortable to remember them: the former colleague, for instance, Doyle had never forgiven for making him look foolish in some prank years ago, languishing now in some forgotten hellhole, never knowing whose word in whose ear had had his minor drugs charge made an example of. Nothing illegal, not even unfair: it was simply that extenuating circumstances did not enter into Ray Doyle’s scale of justice, and mercy was not his style.

Is this the same man that has the Disiderata on his wall? “Go placidly amid the noise and haste….” I don’t think so.

I’m not familiar with the inspirations for the story so I really can’t tell if Sebastion achieved what she set out to do. I’m all for experimental writing but the inspiration has to fit with the characters. Not everything works together….and I think this is the case here.

The writing is beautiful and lyrical, technically intriguing, so much so that I was pulled along by it, while all the time, a little voice was saying, “beware, beware,”. By the time I reached the climax the alarm bells were ringin and it was like passing a bad accident - I knew it was going to be nasty but couldn’t look away.

It was an interesting piece but it left wondering who ARE these men? Certainly not the Bodie and Doyle that I know and love.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delayed response - I got home last night to find the storm had knocked out our internet - *headdesk*

My main one is, are Bodie and Doyle already lovers?
Well, I think this is their "dark unmentionable sin" that they can't talk about or escape - they've had sex, but haven't dealt with it after that, which has allowed the tension to build up between them...

the sex/rape scene
Wow - you saw it as a rape scene? I've got to admit that never entered my mind as I was reading. What made you think that?

The writing itself was so ‘lyrical’ that I lost track of the story amid the prose.
Sounds like you have simpler tastes in writing! I just commented on this to Jaycat up above - that writing style now tends to be much clearer, less descriptive and atmospheric... Personally I love atmospheric writing, and go the other way in that stories which don't give me any idea of atmosphere etc tend to leave me a bit cold...

I can’t understand Bodie’s anger.
To me, he was angry because Doyle was pushing at a weakness they both had (whether they both realised it or not) - they both wanted sex together again, but they both saw it as somehow "wrong" ("the dark unmentionable sin"), presumably due to societal mores/upbringing, but they're both highly sexed and open to the temptation of sex. Bodie reacted to this pushing with anger - and I can see that, because he doesn't take everything with irreverant humour in the eps, and the more personal something is (eg Frasier, in Stakeout, or King Billy in Wild Justice) the more he's likely to reject the humour and react with anger or in some other way instead...

Doyle in a cape with rusty bells on the hemline? Well, I’m sure there’s someone out there who might find that hot, but to me it almost comic.
Well, for me it was more what he was wearing under it, and the sound the bells would make as he moved - a low, dirty, seductive sound... *g*

I also can’t accept the idea that: Doyle brooded and did not forget.
Oh but he's vindictive in canon! What about in Takeaway when he smears mud on the two Flying Squad boys in revenge for their treatment of him? The way he hangs Tony over the bannister and has to be pulled off him, because Benny's been hurt? I agree that she took this a bit far, actually, but I do at least see where she got it in canon... (I find this alot with Sebatian, actually - I can see where she gets scraps of character, and so I can go with it, but she quite often stretches them a very long way indeed...)

Is this the same man that has the Disiderata on his wall? “Go placidly amid the noise and haste….” I don’t think so.
Well that same man throws people over bannisters two or three times in the eps, shoots to kill, and lets his temper get the better of him in quite a few eps - so I'm not sure he's following the advice of the Desiderata all that closely... *g*

It was an interesting piece but it left wondering who ARE these men? Certainly not the Bodie and Doyle that I know and love.
Which is really interesting to me, because they're not the Bodie and Doyle that you know and love, but I can certainly see them in the lads that I know and love, and in the episodes themselves. As I said, I think their characters are stretched, as Sebastian often does for me, but I don't think they're stretched beyond canonical explanation... Hmmn, perhaps it'd be interesting one day to get people to post about exactly how they do see B/D - maybe 5 negative and 5 positive character traits, something like that... *g*

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I’m quite happy about this rec...

Sometimes - I was a bit worried about how easily I could accept to read about gay sex a few years ago. There was never something disgusting for me when I read the first fics! – although it’s for sure that it’s not common knowledge...

But that SM stuff IS disgusting for me! That is more – in a negative sense – than another kind of trust, love, need, desire, even desperation. It’s destroying.
I’m happy that there are boundaries for me, that the ‘power of words’ is limited and that even a good author ‘can’t sell me everything’!

I don’t need that stuff!

:-P

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you're happy you don't like the story because you don't want to like bdsm... *g* Fair enough, not everyone will be into alternatives like that.

Interesting to hear you say that you think fanfic and the "power of words" made you accept the idea of gay sex - am I understanding that right? I'm glad to hear that you didn't find slash stories disgusting! I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that "it's not common knowledge" though - do you mean that it's not so acceptable to be gay, in Germany? Or just that you and people you know hadn't come across it before?

I know that while I was completely open-minded about sex/gay sex/any sex (*g*) etc before I found Pros slash, it wasn't something I'd read much about, or come across much - my world just hadn't gone in that direction. But when I did start reading, I was very happy to have my world expanded just that little bit more... *g*

Venus in Furs

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

I appreciate that a fic should stand alone on its literary merits, but "Venus in Furs" is such a strong influence on this fic that some details are incongruous without knowing the allusions Sebastian is making - including the bells, and 'the knowledge of a thousand years'. I didn't raise this before because I assumed you (generically) knew "Venus in Furs" as classic Velvet Underground(I'm not that old!, I came to it as nostalgia in the 1980s).

It is so close, particularly in atmosphere, that I read it as a literary exercise by Sebastian to write the Prosfic version of the song. That might be why the characters seem a bit off to some (they do to me too). Kneeling in submission, tasting the whip etc. might be commonplace in bdsm (how would I know?) but in this fic I think they come directly from the song lyrics.

It's on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwzaifhSw2c
(sorry, haven't learned how to do links in comments)

I completely agree with jj_minerva: "The writing is beautiful and lyrical, technically intriguing, so much so that I was pulled along by it, while all the time, a little voice was saying, “beware, beware,”. By the time I reached the climax the alarm bells were ringin and it was like passing a bad accident - I knew it was going to be nasty but couldn’t look away. " and add that other things I've read by Sebastian have had the same effect on me.

Re: Venus in Furs

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

So the song and the fic belong together! That's a new dimension, I would say.
I think I just knew the Red Hot Chili Peppers Version up until now - so I was missing the connection...

Thank you!

Re: Venus in Furs

[jj-minerva.livejournal.com]

It is so close, particularly in atmosphere, that I read it as a literary exercise by Sebastian to write the Prosfic version of the song.

Literary exercises like this and others that come to mind are wonderful for writers, but can leave readers behind if they don't know the background. The writing is beautiful, the imagery wonderful, but I find it hard to connect it to Pros.

I'll check out You Tube when I have some quiet time today/tomorrow because the story has made me CURIOUS to understand what it's all about. And that's a GOOD thing.

Re: Venus in Furs

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry I didn't get back here the other day, I'm being an even more rubbish host than usual... But... *g*

I've finally been to look at Sebastian's own commentary for Velvet Underground, although it was rather brief, once I got there! So yes, she was influenced by Venus in Furs, and I can't listen to it right now cos I'm at work - gaargh! I will when I get home tonight, promise!

That said - I wonder if knowing the song is a prerequisite for enjoying the fic though? I've never heard it (or not listened to it, anyway) and I like Sebastian's fic on its own terms without feeling any loss - it almost sounds as if it's worse to know the influence for the story, because it means you're looking for something specific (and in this case dark in a very specific way) in the story?

Kneeling in submission, tasting the whip etc. might be commonplace in bdsm (how would I know?)
I've never played myself, but from reading about it in both Prosfic and other general fiction I'm assuming that's what it's all about! (Don't take me literally there, anyone, I know it's about other things!) But why does this mean you can't see either of the lads doing those things, anyway? Maybe without good emotional reason, you mean? I can definitely think of motivations/psychological issues etc that might send them in the bdsm direction - an outlet for the strong emotions they take in during work, for example?

The lads playing with bdsm might come from the song lyrics in this particular story too, but I think she's done enough to meld the two together, for me. Clearly everyone has their own mileage on something like this, depending on their own vision of the lads - and that's the thing that's interesting to me, why one story works for some, another doesn't - the very many readings of stories! As I've said above somewhere (or below!) it never occurred to me that anyone might read this as a rape fic, and yet some people seem to be reading specific sentences very literally, and taking e.g. tears on Doyle's cheeks to be symptomatic of simple distress rather than something deeper, which is where I automatically went. 's all very int-er-esting... *g*

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

This is a Sebastian tale I have trouble with. She's a very skilful writer (and coincidentally a published one, not that that necessarily means anything, but I do think that in her case it's because she's good!), and she's the author of some of the stories I absolutely love and admire most in the fandom, stories that I think are really stellar in every way. But in some of her tales I feel that she is more enamoured of the sheer craft of writing than she is of B&D - and this is one of those. I think I would have enjoyed this more as a tale of OCs - I note what BSL says above, about the way she takes traits that are there in canon but takes them to extremes, but overall I personally couldn't "see" enough B and D in these characters to feel that they were who their names say they are. There are some Prosfic with bdsm elements - sometimes major elements - that I like a lot, but I don't go for real bdsm in fics for its own sake. So given both of those things (which I'm quite happy to admit could say more about me than about the fic!) this is one I haven't succeeded in getting into. Which is what the Reading Room is all about, to some extent - getting us to read things we otherwise might not have! Colour me intrigued but not moved, perhaps *g*

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

I'm being unoriginal and agreeing, but others have said the same or similar. Put another way, it seems as though Sebastian has put the literary exercise ahead of canon/fanon, and that is why some of us could see this fic with OCs being as good if not better than with Bodie and Doyle.

I am presuming this is not typical of Sebastian? I haven't read enough to judge, only 'Wonderful Tonight'.

[blkandwhtcat.livejournal.com]

I disliked this story reading it the first time, and disliked it again scanning it again now. To me, it doesn't work on any level. The writer (who I usually like, and who has written some of my favorite stories) shows no understanding of the basic concepts or dynamics of BDSM in the context of a relationship, and indeed, the portentous, doom-and-gloom tone is actually funny to me. So much melodrama for so little reason.

One of Sebastian's rare misses, but a miss nevertheless.

[scherwood]

One of Sebastian's rare misses, but a miss nevertheless.

Well said... and I agree! :)

[lysimache.livejournal.com]

This story doesn't work for me, for quite a few reasons. First, the writing and imagery: I don't, to be honest, know the song and haven't read the book, so if the specificity to the imagery (that ridiculous outfit of Doyle's, for starters) is coming from either, well, I'm missing that (and I rather suspect a lot of it is). The language to me is just over-done and silly, not succeeding at creating the mood it seems to be striving for at all. Maybe finding the description of Doyle at the beginning... intriguing or appealing or whatever is necessary to have any sort of buy-in for the story, I don't know. But I do think that since it didn't grab me there (either on this read or previously), I was really not disposed to like the rest of it.

Second, I *really* hated the way the entire premise was handled here, sorry. Doyle goes undercover as a top in a BDSM club and finds it hard to separate that out from the rest of his life, great! That would be awesome. But the realization of that in this story made absolutely no sense to me (why does Bodie top later?), nor did I appreciate the constant assertion that BDSM is dark, diabolical, evil, etc. I think kink can definitely have a lot of psychological resonance, and a story is not real life, BUT. I cannot, cannot, cannot find anything in this story to identify with, and quite frankly, it offends me. I may be a bit sensitive about it, sure, but I think suggesting that kinky sex is something one would only do under the influence of the devil ("The devil stepped into the room and stood looking, interested" -- !) and that kink is therefore inherently evil, a noxious notion, to say the least.

Third: the non-con. I'm not in general a fan of consent-play in fanfic, because the characters in fanfic feel much more like real people to me than do original characters, weird as that might be, and I find it horribly upsetting. Consent issues squick me much less in something that is set up to be just fantasy (say, The Story of O, for a different classic BDSM erotica). There is nothing I find more upsetting than the betrayal of partner rape between characters like Bodie and Doyle, and I try to avoid it as much as possible. And the way it was handled in this story specifically did a couple of things I really hate. One, the notion that rape is a response to being overwhelmed by someone's attractiveness ("Half naked, an appealing sprawl with his clothing disarranged, Doyle looked sweetly ripe for rape"). UGH. That phrasing just makes me furious. Two, that the story explicitly disallows for any reading where you can take it as a seduction scene or whatever instead: Doyle is *miserable* about what happened ("Doyle was sleeping sweetly, his breathing a noisy rasp, his cheeks streaked with the silvery salt of tears"; he doesn't answer when Bodie asks him if it was what he wanted, etc.). One of the reasons that stories about lack of consent ever work in fantasy is because the person secretly wanted it, which is not allowed for here at all (perhaps the POV choice really works against that, too). And again, I just find it offensive, I guess, because kink is not the same as rape. I'm not saying I expect to see a negotiation of consent scene in every BDSM story any more than I expect characters to talk about safer sex practices (or follow them), because it is fantasy, it is erotica, but... this is way past my personal comfort limit. It seems to have so purposely disallowed for consent, for safety, for, you know, sanity.

I think my basic disagreement with the story is just that, well, kink is awesome! Kink is fun! Kink is not an evil force that will take over and ruin your life! Yeah.

[scherwood]

I think my basic disagreement with the story is just that, well, kink is awesome! Kink is fun! Kink is not an evil force that will take over and ruin your life! Yeah.

Amen~ ;P

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I'm actually posting way late – sorry about that! (blame the 'flu). I did comment above, but then I saw that there were other comments that addressed what was talked about there, so I thought I'd just go the whole hog & give my impressions – if anyone's still around to read 'em!

Firstly, I think that it helps if you have heard the song and have at least a basic understanding of the original story of "Venus in Furs". But secondly, and I think more importantly, this isn't a story about "by the book" bdsm, safewords & consensuality negotiated beforehand. There are other stories for that.

I want to reinforce what BSL has said half a dozen times – despite the use of the 'r' word, I absolutely do not see this as a non-con/rape story. I see sexual tension, invitation, temptation, the Lads in way over their heads, but not rape. I suppose it's possible to see "consent issues": because they don't talk about it, because there's a lot of intentional humiliation in Bodie's first response, and because tenderness doesn't come into it until afterwards, when it's tinged with regret… but I could see a similar scenario if they had vanilla sex & were having problems working out what it meant for them too.

The story picks up on the themes in Sacher-Masoch's novel without directly paralleling that work. The fur-edged cape & bells connect directly to the image of Venus in furs at the heart of the novel, as well as the whiney scrape of instruments in the song. Doyle is a little like Wanda in the story – initially reluctant, then caught up in the fantasy, then desiring to be dominated himself. I see the coda as revealing what actually happened when Bodie sought Doyle out – the thing that they have to try to learn to live with. The darkness isn't about any inherent perversion in S&M, it's a darkness in them - Bodie remembers what it was like to submit to Doyle…

Kneeling bared on fur, he cried out, the warm sweet pleasure at his centre ripening, overflowing: and he was coming with unbearable glory even as the silver-tongued whip, expert, drew blood.

…and he doesn't like it (or doesn't like that he likes it, if you know what I mean). So he tries to shut his mind to it all, including the hope of sweetness offered at the end…

Awakening from the maelstrom to silence, tasting the warm mouth of the man who now knelt beside him, holding him, something he had not expected and yet it came to him as naturally as breathing; for an infinity they stayed that way, equals once more, very close.

The sight of Doyle's fetish trappings in the wardrobe reanimates the worst memories of what they did, but also the feelings…

“That’s a dirty game, Doyle,” he said from a tight, tight throat, astonished and ashamed by his intense and urgent responses to something his intellect was sickened by, even as his body yearned.

There's no doubt that Doyle goads Bodie into playing out his fantasy. Bodie is hooked, they both are, and there's such a melancholy sadness at the end…

Perhaps, once, they had dreamed of something different, and never spoken: but it was out of reach forever now.

I for one am glad we have stories that push the envelope sometimes. That's not to say I dislike the more usual B meets D, complications & conflicts ensue but they're together at the end type stories. But who said everything had to be like that? And who knows from canon what might lurk beneath their surface behaviour? I've been most surprised IRL by some of the things "regular" folk get into…

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Doyle was absolutely turned on (see above!) and he wasn't crying because he'd been forced, he was crying because - well either because of the sting of the whip, which I imagine would bring tears to your eyes however much you wanted it, or else in my interpretation because even at the height of passion he recognised that they'd turned their relationship in a "darker" direction...

Or maybe (thinking some more) because what Bodie gave him was part of what he wanted, but not all of it? That if Bodie understood he would have brought him home with love, and comfort, at the end, and they'd recapture themselves, be whole again...