Before you read a Prosfic...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Somewhere along the way I've picked up the impression that Pros fans tend to be divided most strongly into either slash, gen or het (or various combinations thereof) readers, and that it is on this basis first that we decide whether or not to read a particular Prosfic story. Following an interesting discussion a few weeks ago about labels/categories/warnings etc on Prosfic, Circuit Archive is experimenting with including other information in their lj (and presumably other) updates, and this has got me thinking about it all again - in a rather needs-first-coffee-of-the-morning kind of way!

Basically, I know that I hate all warnings etc on a Prosfic story that I'm about to read, except that I'd like to know whether it's slash, gen or het, because I adore slash, I'll read gen if there's some reason to (or a chance of adding my own subtext!) and I don't want to touch het with a bargepole... a very long bargepole! During the discussion, I came across the idea that most people would view a label of slash, het or gen (or the story's pairings, which actually is a much smarter way of telling us whether it's slash, het or gen!) as the same kind of "spoiler" as, say a deathfic warning, which completely surprised me, took me aback, and got me thinking even more... *g*

And then I remembered that lj lets you do those poll-thingies, and wondered if I might try one of those... though I'd like to hear what people think as well as just seeing numbers, so please do comment as well! So - what kind of, if any, information do you look for before you read a Pros story? (And I'm not really going for the to-warn-about-deathfic/rape/non-consensual debate here, although I've included it in my question and I'm curious about numbers there too, it's more the broader sense of the question - and do we care about age ratings? Are there other things people consider that I've never even thought of?!) So, without further ado:

[Poll #1043269]
I've never tried doing a poll before, so here's hoping it works - do let me know if you have problems... Oh, it looks like you have to vote first, and hit submit, and then comment afterwards - you can't comment and vote at the same time (I just tried it...)! And non-lj members can't vote (says lj, not us), but you can still comment!

Comments

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Basically the only warning I really want is major character death... or more to the point, a death story. Not because I don't like reading them but because there's times and places for such fics and sometimes I need to read them.

Actually, thinking about it, what I want is search terms. I want to be able to search for/ exclude specific things, rather than have warnings. So, for example, I could search for death fics but not be told it was BDSM and non-con.... or whatever.

*is kinda cloudy on the whole reality thing atm*

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Good on you that you can manage to be this coherent and interesting pre-morning-coffee. 'M very impressed..*g*

When I came over to Pros from S/H, I liked the fact that as a fandom it did not seem to be into labelling stories ad nauseum. ( I like that in the discoveredinalj challenges, most of us include the disclaimers, info, etc under the cut. I love that I have no idea what kind of story I am about to read there.)

I tend to go by author, rather than things like death fic/BDSM, etc. Rebel is a good example. The gal does the smuttiest slash lemons you can find, then writes a kind of het story (the Elvis fic crossover, for example, Postscript in S/H), and does gen ones, too. She even - god love her - writes brilliant kid fic! It's Rebel, so I'll read it all regardless.

[grey853.livejournal.com]

To warn or not to warn, that's been a huge issue in a lot of fandoms and Pros is no different. Some want no warnings, some want every warning possible. Me, I absolutely need to know if it's a deathfic, because I avoid those completely. I'd also like to know if it's AU, bdsm or any other kink, het sex, and genderfuck. Other than that, I'm pretty good. Those warnings save me a lot of time. I like slash, but I can also read gen, so that part doesn't much matter to me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I like the way you can search for something at Circuit, and at ProsLib and Hatstand to some extent, if you're in the mood for a particular kind of story, I think that's brill. (Yeay our archives!)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I like that about Pros as well, though I don't have any other fandoms to compare it to! So does S/H tend to warn for everything then?

I'll go by author as much as anything else too - except that I still don't want to read het! I can stand most of Rebel's gen so far (*g*) but I'm missing her Pros slash, cos it feels like ages since she's slashed Pros! Is she saving it all up for S/H then?! Come back RebelProsslash, I miss you! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I know, I did wonder how many older fans would roll their eyes at my question, and mutter about old lemons under their breath! But as someone who hasn't seen the debates in Pros I'm still quite interested - so thank you for bearing with me!

Hmmn, so looking at the poll your answer is really F), some other combination of the above... (I guess that's not a very clearly worded option, you're the second person already to answer two separately rather than the F)-combination option! Can't change it now though can I... ah well! I learn for another time!

I suppose what I'm interested in is how much warning people routinely want - how far do you go with warnings before they become spoilers... For example, although I hate to be warned about story content (opposite to you! *g*) I don't consider the slash/het/gen label a "warning" as such, and so I'd assumed that other people saw that a bit differently to other "labels" too.

Hmmn - I may just be repeating myself now - perhaps I'd better go look for more coffee this lunchtime after all!

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

So does S/H tend to warn for everything then? More than Pros. As for Rebel and her slash, she's been doing a 30(?)Smutty Lemons challenge in S/H, which is just brilliant - full of variety on the smut theme.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

I certainly want to know if the story is slash, gen or het, and whilst the vast majority of Pros stories are B/D, I also like this spelt out too, i.e. I want the pairing listed. And in these days when sadly the / sign is being used by some people for a Gen story i.e. you have Genre: Gen. Pairing: X/Y, or indeed the & is being used for slash stories *bangs head* I actually think that 'slash' 'gen' 'het' AND the pairing are necessary. I haven't seen this pop up yet in Pros, but as it's popping up in other fandoms (including older fandoms, like Pros) I think we have to accept that one day someone will come along and do it.

Otherwise I'm a 'want warning for certain things' gal, especially 'major character death'. I will read death stories, but I want to know that I'm going to before I read it. I would also like to be warned for major, heavy kinks, BDSM, blood-play, that kind of thing. But if I could only pick one warning it would be death.

Actually the really big thing I want warning for no one warns for *sigh* as it's the only thing that stops me cold and makes me leave the story never to return. Some things, if I don't like it, I can skip, this I can't. I have to stop reading, and it's not even a major thing, no pain is usually involved, but . . . And I've even stopped dead in a story written by my favourite Pros author when I came across the scene. It's food/sex play, i.e. taking chocolate sauce or whatever into the bedroom and smearing it over one another *shudders* But that's a 'Nikki-quirk' and I don't seriously expect people to warn for it. I would guess that a lot of fen have their own personal 'quirk'.

But death, definitely, for warnings.

Genre:
Pairing:
Warnings: e.g. death

And I've also seen people who say that labelling for 'slash' is the same as warning for 'death', i.e. knowing anything destroys the story.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I thought she was... these multi-fandom writers, I don't know... maybe a warning about them - "Will abandon your fandom for others upon occasion, beware long gaps"... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I must admit that "pairing" rather than "just" slash/het/gen is something I find more useful too - I don't do B/C or D/C unless I'm feeling really... odd, and Murphy pairings not at all!

in these days when sadly the / sign is being used by some people for a Gen story i.e. you have Genre: Gen. Pairing: X/Y
What a bizarre thing to do! So the idea is that it's a gen story revolving around the characters with a slash between their name? I can see pointing it out with an "&", which is, I presume, the other side of your sentence there, but... I thought the "/" had integral meaning as m/m relationship! Is it younger/newer fans who started doing this then, or purely gen fandoms who don't slash in any case, or..? I'm so glad I don't do other fandoms - how do you cope with it all?!

And hee! for food/sex play! I'm not sure I've read any of those actually, but I suspect it'd have to be done in the right way to make me believe it... And yeah, I guess that's something that not even the search options can cover!

Hmmn - when you list "genre" there, are you meaning het/slash/gen rather than, say CI5 universe/science-fiction/American western etc I presume! Cos come to think of it, I do know people who say they won't read Pros sci-fi AUs, or ghost AUs too... So much to think about!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth (and ETA I'm rambling more than I meant to):

Slash/het/gen - yes; I'm one of those who particularly wants to know if a story is het (i.e. ends up het - not a problem if there is some het in there, given the canon!) because although I'm sure there are probably some excellent het stories out there they are not for me.
Pairings can occasionally be confusing - there's a world of difference, obviously, between a story that goes from B/D to a het ending and one that goes from het or /OC to B/D. This is probably silly, but I'd almost like to see the end-pairing listed last or shown differently. Hmm, I think this makes me ridiculously picky .... but I suppose I want to put the time and emotional commitment into a story that will leave me feeling right (not necessarily candyfloss-happy - grit is welcome - but in the right universe if that makes sense).

Deathfic - yes, warning please! Once upon a time long long ago (BP - Before Pros in my personal history) I found myself reading the death of my then favourite character and felt physically sick, then completely miserable for the rest of the day, and then kept flashing back to the awful death at random intervals for a long time afterwards. Am I borderline certifiable? Very probably. Deathfics scoop my innards out and mince them; sufficient unto RL is the evil thereof.

Age ratings - not bothered either way; not really relevant to my own preferences, though of course many people may like to have them.

Everything else, such as bdsm, non-con, the dreaded mpreg etc. - not bothered; these are aspects of a story that I can take or not depending on the writing, and for which I don't feel bad about dropping a story if it's going to places where I prefer not to venture (teddy-bears, talking mice, ye olde tymes .... everyone has their own personal no-go areas. And of course different writers can do very different things even with these).

I appreciate that many people prefer not to be spoiled/have their stories spoiled, so any set-up that allows readers to choose whether or not to see warnings or any labels is up there with sliced bread.

Many thanks for the hard work that brings us the stories! ::drinks health of archivist and writers:: (in healthy and refreshing mate tea, as it 'appens, it being a bit early in the day for anything stronger)

[schnuffi.livejournal.com]

I definitely want to know if it's slash, gen or het cause I won't touch het with a long bargepole either ;) I'd also like to have warning if it's either death fic or rape because I won't read either. Otherwise I like surprises and need no further warnings.

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Well, I may have no time right now for anything (I hate this time of year)...but a poll? Well, yes, I can do a poll! I do like to know if it's slash/het/gen. But I suppose the one I really want to know is the pairing. B/C is a different fandom from B/D, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't want anything more explicit than that. (I do think that it's the responsibility of the reader to figure out if she wants to read a story or not, and she should not rely on other people labeling stories for her particular anti-kinks.)

Labels, after all--even the basic ones we're talking here--are not fullproof in any way. How do you label a story, for instance, that starts with B&D together but ends with Bodie marrying a woman? B/D; B/original character; slash and het? What would be the natural assumption of Pros fen, seeing that label? Probably that it would end with B/D together. So there would be wails of discontent. *g* What's a label-maker supposed to do?

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Interesting question. I would like to know if a fic is a death fic (I will read them, but I need to be in the particular mood). And I guess I'd like to know the pairing (because, while I enjoy gen, I have no interest in het or B/Cowley, B/Murphy, etc.). But that's it. I don't really want to know more than that. Like Callisto, all rules go out the window for me with certain writers.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

What a bizarre thing to do!

Indeed!

So the idea is that it's a gen story revolving around the characters with a slash between their name?

Well I assume so, given the 'Gen', but then I also know that 'Gen' is used by some people not to mean a non-slash story, but to mean a 'General' story, i.e. not one that falls into AU, etc. So . . . *Shakes head*

And of course there's the age old 'Are Gen and Het two separate categories'? debate. I say yes, most definitely, others say 'no' because when Gen was originally used it was meant to imply that the story wasn't slash, but was like the show, and as the guys had women in the show then in a story it was Gen.

The slash, het, gen is easier in multi-pairing fandoms (NCIS, Buffy, etc.) as it's a given, but in older fandoms (Pros, MFU) there are people who hold firm to the 'Gen and Het are the same thing' stance.

I thought the "/" had integral meaning as m/m relationship!

Oh, it does. It does. Again, it's now becoming used in femslash and also to denote a het pairing, and at least that makes some kind of sense. After all they are in a sexual and/or romantic relationship, but it does not make any sense when there is no sexual and/or romantic relationship.

Is it younger/newer fans who started doing this then, or purely gen fandoms who don't slash in any case, or..?

Oh, no, it's not gen fandoms. My guess would be that its newer (and maybe younger) fans who are doing this. Although having said that I know of at least one older fan who always used / for gen stories as she wasn't aware that the & existed.

I know that, like everything, fandom is always going to evolve and change, but even so it makes you want to point the newcomers in the direction of the 'this is what we've used for decades' basic 'rules'.

I'm so glad I don't do other fandoms - how do you cope with it all?!

Well, so far it hasn't cropped up with 'my' pairing, so I pretty much just shake my head, mutter, moan (if I'm in the mood) to a friend and ignore it. After all it doesn't matter to me if the story is slash or gen, I'm not going to read with the 'pairing' or main characters that are listed. But if it did start to happen with my pairing, especially if it happened on one of my Comms, then I'd have a gentle word.

I guess that's something that not even the search options can cover!

Indeed. There will be lots of those really.

Hmmn - when you list "genre" there, are you meaning het/slash/gen rather than, say CI5 universe/science-fiction/American western etc I presume! Cos come to think of it, I do know people who say they won't read Pros sci-fi AUs, or ghost AUs too... So much to think about!

Personally I do indeed mean 'slash/het/gen' for Genre, and then I use sub-genre to depict first time or established relationship, AU, hurt/comfort, etc. etc.

There is indeed so much to consider and at the end of the day there will never be a case where *everyone* is happy about it.

Actually there is one other thing that for me is in need of a warning, maybe even more so than death and that's 'unhappy ending', i.e. Bodie and Doyle split up and it's an out and out split, no possibility of getting back together, no sequel, etc. Those I hate with a passion.

[schnuffi.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, also like to know the pairing as I definitely do not need Cowley having sex with anybody *shudder* Sorry but *uck* I do like the man - as long as he keeps his clothes on.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Actually, I can see conflating the gen/het thing actually - it makes sense in alot of ways, because after all the show was both really! It was "gen" in that it was about the ops etc, but of course the lads are portrayed as het whenever that comes up - because it does come up, as a normal part of "gen" life! Maybe that's what I find not-quite-me about gen fic, that it's apparently often ignoring something that I see as fundamental to life - someone's emotional (if not sexual) relationships... Getting off the subject though, aren't I?!

It's interesting to think about all these things though, and to hear out loud what people think! I quite often hear "well I know people who..." - and of course I say it myself! - but I quite often don't ever see those people expressing those opinions either, so it's never quite the same as having someone say "Well, I think..."!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ooh yes, what about when it changes pairing within?! Hmmn... you know, to some extent I don't mind if it does that, and I don't think I even mind what it ends up as - I just want to know that the slash between B/D is there on some level, that it's a part of their life and their considerations and their reactions... yeah, if they/one of them ends up in a het relationship (and there are zines that I adore where this happens) then I don't feel quite the same about it, but I can still enjoy the getting there... It's knowing that there's slash in there at all for me!

Deathfic just doesn't get me like that - it can make me bleed for them, and make me feel deeply about a story etc, but when I'm bored with feeling sad I just pick up a different story to change my mood. And because I know there's always going to be a different story, then I know they haven't really died! And I don't like my Prosfic to be too un-real life either - too airy fairy happy endings all the time, because I stop believing in it after al while... better to be reminded of how glad I am that they're alive now and then! So if you're certifiable, I have my own twisty little brain working away! *g*

Yeah, age ratings strike me as odd - plus an excellent signpost to the under-age-rs of what to go and read that they theoretically shouldn't be! But then if I only want to read slash then it's all supposed to be over-18 anyway... Although none of it really makes sense anyway - presumably before m/m sex was legalised at 18, not all that long ago, we should presumably have been making sure that readers were over 21 or summat daft... I mean, please!

so any set-up that allows readers to choose whether or not to see warnings or any labels is up there with sliced bread.
Yes, I think so too... But my dilemma comes when I want to see whether a story is slash or not, but I don't want to be warned about what happens in it, such as whether it's a deathfic! I'm not sure there seems to be a way to simply work around that - except perhaps by reading exclusively at Hatstand! *hugs slash-oriented Hatstand* *puts Hatstand down and dusts off carefully*

And yes - general hurrah! for Proslib and Hatstand and Circuit archivists, all three!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you're really F) as well then! There seems to be a preference for slash/gen/het and content warnings so far, which is probably what I expected actually... Mind you, it always surprises me when I hear that people want to know the end of a story, even if it's a sad end!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

*g* I will try not to ask you any questions here - but since I will probably slip up, I give you leave to ignore them!

Know totally what you mean about B/D being a totally different fandom from B/C... I have to be in the right mood to read B/C or B/D, though I have read some good ones - except that one of them is really B/D disguised as B/C!

I agree with you about it being the responsibility of the reader to figure out whether a story is worth reading too - but then why don't I extend that to include whether it's slash or not? Hmmn - maybe because I absolutely hate not finishing stories that I've started reading, but a het story is a complete waste of my time - like reading a cereal box, I know what's on there, I've seen it often enough that I'm bored by it, and would rather stare out the window and watch the rain!

But where does that cross over with the "other fandom" thing I wonder... I wonder if I could have phrased my poll in a better way to find out?! Maybe "what information do you insist on knowing, if you can, before you read a story...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I guess I quite like being put in a mood by a story, come to think of it... I don't necessarily want it to be an extension of my current mood at all, otherwise I'd just keep doing what I was doing! Ooh, never thought about that before - isn't fandom fab for making you consider different things... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - same for me, but of course some people say it the other way around!

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Really, really, really I don't have time for this, but... *g*

You know...I'm torn on this issue, really, because I use labels if they are there...I just sort of disapprove of them on principle. *g* At least, the ones that reveal story content. But I peek at endings all the time. And while I read death stories, I do need to know it's a death story first. Ahem. Basically, I guess I like spoiler-type labels to be available but hidden.

But as for slash/gen/het...I do see those as different from the more content-based labels. And maybe it is best described as different fandoms. I don't read, oh, stories from The New Professionals, just as I don't read het or B/C. I would read a story that has the characters from The New Professionals in a B/D story, just as I read and love "The White Cloth". But a story focusing on a different show, or on a het relationship for Bodie or Doyle, well, that's not my "fandom"--which is the relationship between Bodie and Doyle. Hmmm.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I submitted my answer (b) and then thought "but..." *g*
There are times I want to search for certain types of stories, for bdsm or Bodie/Doyle/Murphy for example. When this happens, what I'm looking for is simply information, not "warnings" - luckily the Circuit Archive has that search option, although I have found some odd things in the search results from time to time!

I'm with you on not wanting to know in advance if a story is a death fic. I'll read anything, pretty much, including het (although I then have to read some slash afterwards, just to get the vibe back). So I suppose no warnings would be my preference. Happy for them to be hidden somewhere for other people, though.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I can't believe you peek!

But yes, yes, yes! to everything else that you said! And I like the way you call the other labels "content-based", that's rather how I feel as well. I know that I want to read B/D in the same way that I want to read Pros not SGA, although I will venture into B/C or Torchwood at a push. To me that's kind of like reading the blurb on the back of a novel. But after that I don't want to know about the content of the story, which is more like reading the middle or end of the story first... (I can't believe you peek!)

Okay, now I'm thinking further down twist-y paths... peeking at the ending is scrolling down to the end of a story, and you can read as much or as little as you like to spoiler yourself... but being told that something is a death-fic seems a bit different somehow too... *echoes the hmmmn*