When is a zine a zine?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

So, I'm quite often talking about zines with various people, partly cos of palelyloitering.com, partly just cos, and I keep coming up against this question. I'm sure it's not a new one, so apologies to anyone who's already done this wonderment to death. (But your informed opinions are also sought!)

When is a zine a zine? If an individual staples together their fic, and sends it out into the wide world to be copied at will, is it just as much of a zine as one that has been compiled by someone calling themselves "editor" (of whatever qualifications/experience) and taken to professional printers, nicely comb-bound, or stitched with archival tape, and then advertised and sold to people afterwards?

I mean, what makes a zine a zine, and not just alot of photocopies? There's no legality at all to fandom publishing, so presumably it can't be anything "official". And what does it have to do with size? Does size matter?

What about now as opposed to then? If someone writes a 200-page-when-printed story but only publishes it online, is it as much of a zine as one written 20 years ago on a manual typewriter and then stenographed and sold to people "in the know"? Or is this somewhere that never the twain shall meet?

Oh, so curious...

Comments

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Does size matter?
Alright, I'm laughing too much...

As you know, a friend of mine was involved a long way back in producing a "Down Under" Pros letterzine. A5 paper, photocopied at dubious times and so on. I gather that a lot of early fan production was in this format.

She also co-published (using the same technique, typing an original and pasting in graphics to later photocopy) a long Meg Lewtan story that is no longer available on ProsLib due to the author retro-fitting it as an original slash work. I don't think she would call it a 'zine, though.

But there are single-story works listed as 'zines elsewhere... yeah, I can see how it gets murky. And how definitions accepted now don't reflect fandom publishing/story-propagating history.

Hope someone turns up with the Golden Key, because I don't have it!

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm easy to please. :-) In my mind, even the stapled copy of someone's fic is a zine. Even if it's a zine in need of some help. I've taken plenty of the old circuit novels, created a CGA for the cover, then bound them up and proceeded to add them to my list of zines. Plus, when you see some of the early Trek "zines," it's hard to think that it takes real editing for something to be named a zine!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

See, that's what I'm wondering - the technicalities of things back then meant that fans produced zines in certain ways, and presumably finances could limit numbers printed, and the number of fans in contact (without the instant-contact of the web!) was much smaller, and possibly geographically-limited in some instances. If someone today does things a similar way - staples together a bunch of photocopied pages and sends them out to a dozen friends who've paid for the photocopying - is it just as much of a zine as something that one of the bigger "publishers" who's been able to sink alot of money into it, funding equipment or even making a profit etc has made?

Thanks for even letting me know you don't have the key! I should go check behind the fridge, I suppose... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

See, that's pretty much how I am too. *g* If it's on paper and it's somehow stapled together, I'll call it a zine! So... say we eventually get bored and get rid of all our us-made-up zines (never happen, I know, but bear with me!) and eventually someone else gets hold of our collections, and say that someone is making a list of zines (*whistles innocently*) - do our us-made-up zines count as zines then? To them? I mean, they put them into their list, and other people see them as zines - hard to get hold of, just like the really rare "original fandom" zines, but zines - how does that count I wonder?

As for editing - would it matter who edits something? I mean, a friend and I could edit for each other, copy, comb-bind and sell our stories... And I don't get the impression that most zine editors are professionally qualified in any way - so what makes them different to my friend and I, for example? Experience? What if my friend was a retired professor of English, editing her first zine - does she trump a shop-keeper who's been editing, printing and selling zines for 10 years, but has no qualifications to be doing so? I just keep coming up with more question!

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

My understanding (as co-editor of an online zine ...) is that zine is short for magazine and as such needs more than one contributor, even if it's just the editorial team rambling, maybe an artist and an advert or so. It also requests submissions. So a single story, online or in photocopy format can never be a zine - it has more in common with a book. Another thing about a zine is that it aims at regular publication or at least more than one issue. Again, a single story can't do that although it can be part of a series. The qualifications and expertise of the editors are irrelevant - a primary school class can produce a printed or online zine. Some authors may call their A4 spiral bound books zines because they are under a misapprehenson. It doesn't have any bearing on the contents!!

[izzie7.livejournal.com]

Fascinating questions!

I suppose part of the issue here is that it is so much easier now for writers to publish work to a wider audience than when everything had to typed manually and photocopied for distribution. So in a way, the definition of "zine" has changed. along with the definition of "publishing". People can now "publish" pretty much anything they like on the web, & up it comes, complete with perfect/appalling grammar, correct/dreadful spelling, fantastic/abhorrent ideas - you get the drift *g*.

As a relative newcomer to the whole world of fandom, I may be bringing slightly antiquated (or 'real life' - depends on your interpretation!) views to this, but if I buy a zine, my expectation is certainly that someone other than the author(s) will have checked not just for typos & really bad grammar, but preferably also have done a bit of picking up plot-holes etc. & getting them fixed. It doesn't matter to me if that person is a retired English professor or a shop-keeper, as long as they can do what is required! (Of course, ideally authors putting their stuff up online would also have done this...)

As for whether printing off various stories of your own choices, binding them together & then distributing them makes a zine - well, not to my mind. The authors may have strong views about whose work their stories appear with (especially if you mix gen & slash), so while it's no problem for an individual to put together whatever combination of works she wants to, I have to say I would be a bit uncomfortable with that combo then being distributed to others. It's not logical, I know, if the work is available online anyway, but it's just a gut reaction I have.

Hmm - I may have to go away & think about this a bit more.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>When is a zine a zine? If an individual staples together their fic, and sends it out into the wide world to be copied at will...

Of course, several Pros zines were designed specifically to be "circuit zines". I'm thinking of "Up Against the Wall", "In The Lift", "Right Down to the Belt", etc. The editor didn't print many copies, but they were given to friends with the idea people would copy the whole zine for other people, just like people copied individual circuit stories.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

I've written and published four fan novels in two different fandoms. I've always called them fanzines, advertised them as fanzines, and people discuss them as fanzines. I've also published several fan novels by other authors; again, they are referred to as fanzines. I've published three Professionals novels, several Blake's 7 novels, a couple of Due South novels.

I'm surprised by the concept that a fan novel doesn't qualify as a zine. I've been reading fanzine novels for 30 years now, and they're always called "zines".

Also, many fanzines involving multiple contributors were specifically planned as "one-shots". The editors/contributors only intended to do one issue. So that automatically removes them from the pro "magazine" definition.

I've also published several fanzines which are collections of the work of a single author. So that's another variation on the theme.

If you step away from the media world, there are a whole lot of "zines" out there which are "personalzines", written entirely by the publisher. This used to be quite common in SF literary fandom in the 60s and 70s, and probably even before that time.

Wikipedia has quite a good article on this subject, and addresses the similarity between those kind of personalzines back then and and blogging now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanzines

The first media fanzines, back in the 1960s (for "Star Trek" and also the 1960s camp vampire soap opera "Dark Shadows") were heavily influenced by SF literary zines of that time.

It's all been an evolutionary process. The wikipedia article talks about all the old printing processes, such as mimeograph. I did my first zine on a mimeograph machine. Most Trek fen back then were also SF fen, and we borrowed quite freely from the customs already established in SF literary fandom.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - my first thought here is to wonder whether you (moth2fic and catalenamara) are talking about the same "kind" of zines? Is there a difference between "original fiction" or non-fiction zines, which are perhaps what you're referring to,moth2fic, and fanzines?

I tend to think of fanzines as very flexible things, which may be single story "novels", written, edited and even illustrated by the same person, just as much as they might be the anthology zines, or multifandom zines. While I have looked at the wiki articles, and seen other posts/articles etc on fanzines, it was originally fandom itself that gave me these ideas, via comments and forums and just chatting with other fans - so how much does that count?

I actually think that part of the reason I'm so fond of zines is precisely because I feel that they can be anything at all - they're a reflection of "amateur" creativity, unsullied (I dream) by commerciality, or overly-strict editorial "policies". I love that they have such a long history too. I suppose I'm wondering exactly how far their evolution has gone, and whether what evolution there has been is flexible enough to still encompass a single girl with a mimeograph, as well as the consortium of editors with an account at a professional printers...

Perhaps it was a silly question - it seems there are as many definitions as there are fans!

catalenamara, could I ask which three Pros zines you published, or is that too nosy of me? I'm always looking out for information about Pros zines to include at http://www.palelyloitering.com!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but if I buy a zine, my expectation is...
D'you know, I'm not sure that I have that expectation, when I think about it. I'd certainly hope that language and typos etc have been carefully checked, but I know I've seen some pretty dreadful typos and grammar in some zines that do have editors, and the exact opposite from some zines which were entirely author-published, with no other editor involved. Which might suggest that it comes down to skill, experience or qualifications of whoever it is editing. But then that makes me think about the original point of zines - that they were amateur publications, created for sharing and pleasure. Should we be putting limits on that? I don't think we can sit back and say "You should only publish a zine if you're at such-and-such a standard", because doesn't that take away the original point? I mean we can hope for it, especially if we're spending money, but I'm not sure that we can expect it...

As for whether printing off various stories of your own choices, binding them together & then distributing them makes a zine - well, not to my mind.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply distributing them on purpose - just that when people do this, and their collections are eventually passed along from fan to fan (when their owner dies, for example) the person who ends up with them may not know whether something has been "officially" published or not. I've got a fair few zines (which i know where "officially" published) that don't actually have the name of the publisher or anything like that printed on them - so it's how to distinguish in twenty years time... I quite agree that binding and then distributing other's work (especially if there was payment involved) seems unethical!

But then that also leads to the question of how much control authors etc retain over their own work once it's published in a zine. I mean - even if money didn't exchange hands from the original publication, there are dealers on ebay presumably making a profit from selling zines - effectively from the work of the authors which was originally given freely... And I've seen zines which say both "Permission is not given to photocopy this zine", as well as "This zine should be freely copied and shared". The former strikes me as an impossible thing to say, somehow - surely you can't distribute permissions over what is essentially, and to some extent, a not-strictly-legal publication in the first place? Whereas the latter seems more like the spirit of being inspired and creative and sharing that with like-minded people (I know, I know - hark at the idealist!)

All very thought-provoking, isn't it?!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Speaking of typos... *headdesk* - many apologies for those above!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

This is one of the ideas I love about zines, but I'm not sure how much it's still in effect these days? (Of course that's partly cos I don't roam outside my own little fandom - maybe the tradition is alive and well?)

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I can see where you are coming from - and after all, if you call them zines they are zines! But the wikipedia article highlights collections, issues and editors, and points out that fanzines differ from what it calls prozines mainly in being non-profit-making. I would argue that this distinction is becoming blurred since the proliferation of net zines. The bit about blogs says that with their threaded comments [etc].....(they) follow the structure without realising the antecedents. I couldn't find a mention of single novel 'zines' though of course I have read novels in 'zine format'.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

I sure haven't heard of anyone doing a circuit zine in ages, but who knows? Fandom is so huge and so diffuse, maybe this tradition lives on somewhere?

At a recent fannish party, one woman brought along an X Files zine she and several friends had produced just for themselves. It was all their own fiction and artwork; and they only made enough copies for each tribber. It was never meant to be distributed any further. Next time I see her, I think I'll ask what her thoughts would be about a "circuit zine". (I believe that all the stories and artwork are available on a website.)

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>I tend to think of fanzines as very flexible things, which may be single story "novels", written, edited and even illustrated by the same person, just as much as they might be the anthology zines, or multifandom zines.

Agreed. The definition of fanzine is very flexible. And different fandoms have different traditions. I'm told that Xena, Warrior Princess fandom had entirely different terminology for many common media fannish terms. I wish I knew some examples - someone told me all about it one time, but unfortunately I can't remember any details right now.

>>>I actually think that part of the reason I'm so fond of zines is precisely because I feel that they can be anything at all - they're a reflection of "amateur" creativity, unsullied (I dream) by commerciality, or overly-strict editorial "policies".

I was thinking about this today, and here's my definition of a fanzine:

1 - an amateur publication, whether written by one person or a variety of people
2 - which is published with the knowledge and approval of everyone involved that it will be distributed to other people

Now, I have made my own "zines" by printing out favorite netfic, binding them, and coming up with a nice photo for a "cover". But I always mentally add those "quotation marks", since these are strictly for my own personal use.

>>>I love that they have such a long history too. I suppose I'm wondering exactly how far their evolution has gone, and whether what evolution there has been is flexible enough to still encompass a single girl with a mimeograph, as well as the consortium of editors with an account at a professional printers...

*shudder* thinking about the mimeograph machines. I did my first six Dark Shadows zines on a mimeo machine. It's a wonder any zine editor survived the 70s - those fumes could *kill* you...! I was so happy when low-quantity photo-offset printing became available to fan publishers.

>>>Perhaps it was a silly question - it seems there are as many definitions as there are fans!

I think you're right about that. We all think we know what we're talking about, but these definitions are amorphous at the edges. There are so many different traditions and fandoms now, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them don't have slightly different "takes" on these issues.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - at the Pros challenge comm, discoveredinalj we're making the stories for each challenge available as a bound-together zine, free (of course) to download for anyone who wants. We're vaguely hoping that this is something of a descendent of circuit zines... or at least, I am - my co-mod is by far the more experienced and multi-fandom-aware/cynical of us!

I'd love to hear whether your friend has any objections to people copying their personal zine further, if you do find out. I'm in the middle of working out whether that was de rigeur when something was put onto the "circuit" in Pros, or whether permission had to specifically be stated on the fic/zine etc before someone should feel comfortable doing so. And I gather there are much stricter rules for the current (non-US) paper circuit...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

with their threaded comments [etc].....(they) follow the structure without realising the antecedents.
Gulty as charged, though not strictly by wiki! I suspect I was perhaps at fault for not specifying "fanzine" rather than simply "zine" in my question - I know if I search-ebay "zine" I get very different things... (Mind you, wiki itself is not the definition of anything, but because of the way it's authored, just a definition...)

So now I'm curious - where does your definition of a "zine" come from? Is it the non-fandom aspect? Where did your zine start as a zine as opposed to something else?

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>Hmmn - at the Pros challenge comm, discoveredinalj

I'll go check that out.

>>>We're vaguely hoping that this is something of a descendent of circuit zines...

That would be cool - carry on the tradition...!

>>>I'd love to hear whether your friend has any objections to people copying their personal zine further, if you do find out.

I'll definitely ask her next time I see her.

>>>I'm in the middle of working out whether that was de rigeur when something was put onto the "circuit" in Pros, or whether permission had to specifically be stated on the fic/zine etc before someone should feel comfortable doing so.

I got into Pros in the late 80s; you definitely need to speak to someone who was in the fandom prior to that. My understanding is that most of the original anonymous stories weren't necessarily intended for a larger audience, but when the fandom took off, people wrote specifically for "the circuit". I'm told this came as a surprise to the writers of those first stories.

Are you working on a fannish history? I'd love to know more.

>>>And I gather there are much stricter rules for the current (non-US) paper circuit...

I had *no* idea there still *was* a paper circuit. Wow!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Thank you for all of the above!

My understanding is that most of the original anonymous stories weren't necessarily intended for a larger audience, but when the fandom took off, people wrote specifically for "the circuit". I'm told this came as a surprise to the writers of those first stories.
Oh how interesting... I always think of the culture shock for the early slash writers when the internet came along, I've only vaguely thought of the moment when fandom itself "took off" - I gather before your time too, but when do you think this was? I'm pretty open about what I read and write I think, but I know I wouldn't always have been that way - perhaps I'm lucky as to when I came into slash and fandom! I can imagine it must take quite the adjusting for fans used to the original (much more) underground nature of it all...

I always wonder as well how the early fans connected with each other in the first place. I was in the depths of bush Australia back then, with not a clue, and it amazes me that such contacts were made that fandom grew as it did. It was friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend, perhaps?

I'm not unfortunately working on a fannish history, except in my own head. I'd love to, it's just my thing actually, but I don't think I have near the contacts/knowledge/own-fannish-past to do it justice! I'm very much a fannish-newbie, and aware of it... That said, I very much want to know as much as I can - absolute historian, me... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this today, and here's my definition of a fanzine:
1 - an amateur publication, whether written by one person or a variety of people
2 - which is published with the knowledge and approval of everyone involved that it will be distributed to other people
Oh, this absolutely echoes what I think, in my instinctual-but-wondering-what-other-people-think kind of way. The more I think about it, the more these seem to be the most basic requirements, and that extent of money and extent of "editing" has little to do with it...

But I always mentally add those "quotation marks", since these are strictly for my own personal use.
Yes I do too, but then I began to wonder what happened when collections were passed on, and the new, probably ecstatic, fan had little idea which zines were quotation-marked and which weren't. I know I have zines that seem to be "published", with a cover and illustrations etc, that have no publisher's name or date or anything within. I think those are official-to-be-shared zines, but without any further information I can't swear to it...

It's a wonder any zine editor survived the 70s - those fumes could *kill* you...!
And there's me remembering the treat it used to be in school to be given the job of turning the machine handle, and the way we all used to breathe deeply of the freshly-copied, beautifully purple-inked pages! *g*

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

My definition ...you like making people think, don't you!

I've read fanzines, of course, and single stories/novels in zine format, which I never thought of as zines because the word always seemed short for magazine. And the first fanzines I came across all had stories by more than one person in them, plus some kind of editorial comment. And of course you get magazines in book format (Readers' Digest) as well as novels in magazine format ...

The zine I'm involved in had its roots in a writing group on Yahoo. Some of us wanted to showcase a particular kind of work and give space for comment, feedback etc. in an online version of a magazine. Maybe we were influenced by other online publications that call themselves zines (all containing a variety of writings).We certainly looked at plenty. Maybe, while we are non-profit-making and on the fringes in terms of mainstream culture, the name zine seems more appropriate than magazine. Or more trendy? Or simply more in keeping with e-publication? We considered a print version but for the time being the cost has put us off. If we did go for printed copies I suspect, though I can't speak for the rest of the team, that we'd call it a magazine.

Interesting!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

My definition ...you like making people think, don't you!
*grins unrepentently*

But thank you for the insight! It sounds like people thinking in fandom terms when they come across a "zine" of some kind for the first time will possibly define it that way, whereas if they're thinking of magazines when they first come to think of the the word "zine" then there's not necessarily that fandom connection to be made, because the word is in widespread use outside of fandom as well... And I know I've seen things calling themselves "e-zines" too.

So ultimately, my bad for forgetting that there was a word outside fandom, and not thinking to call them "fanzines" in my header..!

And of course you get magazines in book format (Readers' Digest) as well as novels in magazine format...
Except... ahaha! So you're defining a "book" and a "magazine" as specific formats as well! To me Readers Digest will always be a magazine printed in small format, and I can't imagine a novel in "magazine format" that wasn't some kind of amateur publication (or special edition of People's Friend etc!), making it to some extent (and to me) more of a "zine" than an official "magazine", which I always think of as a some-degree-of-glossy, mass-produced, regularly produced publication with photographs.

Which makes me wonder what I call those publications that are clearly not glossy and with no photos - can't think of any titles now - but they quite often showcase local writers, or not-quite-published writers, and I've seen some that are based on locality, and meant more to keep locals up with things - they're bigger than a newsletter, not as often as a newspaper, but they're not glossy like a magazine... And d'you know I don't think I call them anything! I think I skim over their definition in my head - "oh-one-of-those-things-about..." and then I go on to the "about" and focus on that and whether I want to buy it... Hmmn!