CI5 hq

I was just talking about this with a friend during and after the SGA fuss that broke out recently. Pros is a very different fandom from SGA - thank all the graces!

It was interesting to me that in reading the various LJ posts, both those focused narrowly on the SGA fandom and those who broadened the question to other fandoms, that the overwhelming majority of those upset by the idea were relative newcomers to fandom. And by relative newcomers, I mean post-Internet fandom participants. I think the idea that permission should or even must be sought and received before writing a story sparked by another fan fiction is very much an Internet-fandom related question. I found it extremely interesting that several of the posters who offerred a different, historical viewpoint had experience in writing Pros (e.g. Sandy, Cynthia, Nansi). (And while I know that I didn't read all posts on the question, I did read a huge number because it was a topic that interested me.)

Pros has a long, long tradition of writers sparking off each other's work and writing stories that are inspired by and/or negative reactions to other stories, both with and without seeking the approval from the writer of the source inspiration. I'd even say that was one of the major forces that propelled and shaped The Circuit. Some stories are actually sequels while others are more loosely inspired by a plot point, image, or question. Some sequels have been authorized (e.g. Joana Dey's story, Life Goes On which is an authorized sequel to Kathy Keegan's Gentle on My Mind series), and many others have not.

You can get a sense of how common that was just by looking at Pen's series list for Pros stories. However, since the series list only deals with series of three or more stories, it won't show the times when a story got a single sequel written by someone else. But you can find numerous instances if you browse through Cassie's huge database or Lady Dagger's sequel info.

There are many factors that I think shaped the attitudes in Pros, amongst them its development as a slash fandom that grew out of The Circuit (whose unique influence cannot be over-estimated), its huge zine base, and that it was well established before the Internet and online fandom came into being. Any of which is rich enough fodder for a dissertation-length response, though I'll spare you that for the moment. *g*

Out of the Blue by Rob doesn't have a sequel by anyone as far as I know. I did double check with Pen's lists, Cassie's database, and Lady Dagger's info and none show a sequel - or prequel. I'd still need to check Lily's story reference lists to be sure, but ....

From:

brenk.livejournal.com

My immediate reaction to this was 'well, it's one of those things where your take on it depends if you're personally involved'.

I mean... it's easier to find good in stuff like Fandom Wank if you haven't been wanked, or it's easier to say concrit is fine if you haven't been flamed. And it's easier to say 'well we're all plagiarists anyway so to hell with etiquette' until one of your stories is 'kidnapped' for a sequel. And particularly if you, as the writer, loathe the sequel. If the author's really dropped off the face of the planet, then... um... I dunno. I suppose it would indicate she really isn't into Pros any more and doesn't give a damn.

So I suppose my attitude tends towards the 'asking is nice, if the author is there to ask', because in two cases, I've had people write sequels (or actually, in one case a missing scene from a different POV).

In the 'missing scene' thing, I was delighted, and in fact poked the writer to do it. I like her stuff, and her take on things, and... yeah. Fun.

In the other, it was more tricky. Somebody wrote a sequel I *hated*, and presented it to me as a sort of fait accompli. Of *course* I couldn't stop her (see 'we're all plagiarists' above). Lots of people like that author's stuff, but it's often way too schmoopy for my taste. This... this was schmoopy, and took the whole scenario in a place I really, really didn't want the story to go (I was thinking about writing a third piece in that world, having done two). But at least she sent it to me and asked for an opinion!

So I took a deep breath and said what I thought. Politely. And added that I thought the story could stand alone without specific reference to my original character, with just a little reworking - although again I obviously couldn't force her to do so. Happy ending - she was gracious about it and did exactly that. But I'm quite sure that wouldn't apply in many cases, if the sequel is intricately tied up with the original story.

I *hope* that if she'd have insisted on going ahead, and posted, or even put an 'inspired by' in her author's notes, I'd have sat on my hands, or even stuck it up on my site together with my own story. Not sure about that, mind. Like with the examples above, it may be different when you're the one feeling angry or upset or targeted.

OK, it's still sort of flattering when somebody likes your world or characters enough to use them: I admit that. But it's still a minefield. Sure, some stories cry out for sequels or other fics in that particular world, but I think, all things considered, it's a minefield I'd rather stay out of. I think there are enough possibilities in Pros to keep me happy, when writing, meaning there's no need to use what other people have written. And yet from a reader's point of view, it'd often be nice to *have* that sequel.

Tricky one, huh?

From:

Writing sequels to another person's story, authorized or not, was fairly common in Trek fandom in the early days. I wrote a piece that was published in a fanzine in the mid-70s. The next issue included two sequels based on my work.

I was:

1. Startled.
2. Flattered, because I knew this was part of fannish tradition.
3. Honored, because it was nice that my work was well-received enough to inspire sequels.
4. Annoyed, as I really didn't care for one of the sequels at all.

There was a panel discussion at this year's Escapade which covered this subject; it was quite fascinating.

From:

So glad that you added in your experience. Do you know if the Escapade panel was covered in any particular con reports? I read some con reports but I missed many, and I was focused primarily on the vid show comments.

I had added a postscript when I posted my LJ comment to the Pros-lit mailing list where I referenced Star Trek, as that was also my recollection (the discussion was cross-posted).

Addendeum:
Expanding a bit on my LJ post, I'd add in Star Trek-TOS as another fandom in which such a question (is permission expected or necessary) would have been looked at with bemusement during most of its thirty year history. A nod towards acknowledging the inspiration, yes, absolutely, but permission? That's a very different thing.

As to whether or not Pros fen today would view an author writing a sequel to a Pros story written by another author as a breach of etiquette? I'd say that it would be much less likely than in many other fandoms - and in my opinion that's a very good thing - but it would be variable. Different fandoms can have very different norms, and one's prior experience in a fandom often shape their future expectations in other fandoms. So it would also depend on how recently the person asked came to Pros fandom, if Pros was their first fandom, and if they had any sense of Pros unique fandom history.

And too, I think opinions will vary on whether the story is a true sequel (i.e. that it accepts the prior story as "canon background" if you will and builds off it) or if the new story is sparked by the prior story, but doesn't use it as "canon background" - instead moving in a different direction.

Oh, and a last thought (at least for this post *g*) - not all the sequels or stories inspired by others in Pros have been complimentary. Many of the follow-ups to Consequences were attempts to repudiate or remodel the original. There are also several instances where follow-up stories were taking the piss regarding the originals, some more friendly than others.

From:

Oh, and I meant to ask, what was your original story? I'm really curious now. I'd give browsing through my ST-TOS zines a shot if you weren't so (wonderfully) prolific. That makes it a bit hard to narrow the field of possibilities. *g*

From:

Oh what a shame - it really does seem to be right in the middle of something doesn't it..! Thanks for the info though : )

From:

(Going to reply here a bit to both posts!)

You can get a sense of how common that was just by looking at Pen's series list for Pros stories.
That was really what started me thinking about it actually - people so clearly did write the sequels in the past, and yet I had a sort of inkling that it was a bit frowned upon these days...

It seems like there are so many factors to take into consideration - there are clearly no blanket "rules". I liked

catalenamara's summary of how she felt on seeing sequels to her own work - I'd imagine that mix of feelings would be fairly common among authors? Because it seems like it would be a compliment, somehow, to have have a sequel written, even if it was a "negative" one - it suggests that people have been moved by what was written in some way?

I don't follow SGA or ST (or in fact any other fandom!) at all, but it was interesting to hear their aspect of the debate - thanks! And your thoughts about internet vs zine/circuit viewpoints sound very plausible to me (with clearly exceptions on all sides!) I wonder if the accessibility of everything on the internet, and its notoreity for enabling people to "steal" from each other - in general not just in fandom I mean, plagiarising sites for homework, downloading information in exams, stealing bandwidth, for example - might make people a bit more leery. Whereas writing a sequel that was perhaps likely to be seen by fewer people via zines etc limited the damage on its own, if the author didn't like it for whatever reason, now that "damage" is much more easily widespread and available... And so people are more defensive about it to start with?

Your posts have made me think far more than this response suggests, but I wanted to at least reply a bit tonight. I have a terrible habit of asking questions and then seeming to vanish I think, but it nots cos I'm not reading the replies and thinking about them all...

From:

It is a very tricky one!

One thing that strikes me here, that I probably wasn't thinking about when I asked the question, is when you said you were really in the middle of writing the series yourself, when someone sort of stepped in and wrote it for you - eep! That seems to be a strong argument for asking first, if the author is around to ask!

That said, I can see people getting tangled up in practical things, like how you contact an author, and how long they're given to respond - if they don't respond is it because the email is dead, or because they don't care, or are they just really slow at checking their emails, or... how long do you wait, and how long in all that before your own inspiration dies... Obviously if someone's pretty "visible" in fandom then the process is alot quicker and simpler (you'd hope!) but obviously lots of writers aren't at all. When the practicalities of asking permission run the risk of killing of a new creative endeavour, is there a place where you draw the line and say "I tried my hardest but..." and then do it anyway?

Mostly I think I've been considering the question in my head from a reader's pov, because as you say it would often be good to have sequels to particular fics, and if it looks like the author has finished with it, then as a reader, as long as the story is "just as good" as the first ones, then does it matter in some ways who writes it? (*ducks* - I did say I was thinking as a reader there!)

And you know, thinking about it as a writer, I don't think I'd mind if someone wrote a sequel to anything I'd done, as long as I wasn't planning to do it myself. But I'm not sure I can imagine posting something that didn't feel complete to me in the first place, so by definition anything I'd post would probably be complete... or else perhaps I'd label it "to be continued"... Then again, that's probably a very silly thing to say, and we all know what will happen next to the silly noisy writer... *g*

Mind you, if someone hasn't asked your permission first, and you don't like a sequel that's written to your fic, I don't suppose there's really any reason why you shouldn't let them know that's not the direction you saw it going...

Makes me think of discussions about concrit in a way now (*she rambles*) - when do you let a story go? What is the point at which an author is detached enough from their story to be happy to receive concrit and/or someone else writing a sequel to it... Never for some people I guess. Is it the same type of detachment in either situation? If anything, concrit seems a harsher thing to accept, to me, than someone writing a sequel, and yet people seem to cry out in favour of concrit, and against sequels... (generic people, obviously!)

And finally, as far as possibilities in Pros - well yes, there are many, but sometimes, just sometimes, I wanna know what happens next in a particular story. And it's not really a case of "using" what someone else wrote, as feeling the urge to carry on in that universe (at least for me) - and if no one else will write it, well then... *g*

And yeah, fan-community considerations aside, ultimately that's what we're all doing, isn't it, carrying on the Pros universe... If Mr C. said he didn't like the way our sequels were taking the characters, well, would any of us feel obliged to stop..?

From:

Oh I do like the description of how you felt when it happened to you - thanks so much for posting that! Makes sense, I think, too... the positive and the negative bits.

Did the con panel come to any conclusions? I know that might be a tricky question to answer, but..?!

From:

Do post this to Pros-lit, please? I think it would add to the discussion.

I have a terrible habit of asking questions and then seeming to vanish I think, but it nots cos I'm not reading the replies and thinking about them all...

And if you post this to Pros-lit you'll be breaking that "terrible habit" *g*

Aside from practical considerations, I often want time to process a discussion thread in it's entirety before I comment; I'm very much a gestalt thinker and some topics require more rumination than others. It's one reason why I prefer mailing lists over LJ: mailing list discussions have a much longer shelf life than LJ. Perhaps the new tracking feature will help with LJ - though it took me more than one track to realize that merely clicking on the track pushpin doesn't ensure that I will receive notifications; you have to go to the manage features and check each track post for that to happen. And as a free user, I'm limited to tracking the entire post, not individual threads. But it's still better than nothing.

From:

That was really what started me thinking about it actually - people so clearly did write the sequels in the past, and yet I had a sort of inkling that it was a bit frowned upon these days...

I think that inkling isn't entirely wrong; there are those who don't approve as you saw on the list. And no, there aren't "blanket rules" but I still think the dominant paradigm remains that being inspired by, riffing on, and even writing sequels for other's stories is an essential - and valued - component of Pros fandom.

I also think that you'll get different gradiations of support for that view depending on if you speak mainly to readers or readers/writers. And don't forget to add in the human tendency to make exceptions for our own actions while calling others to account - no matter what the issue.

Because it seems like it would be a compliment, somehow, to have have a sequel written, even if it was a "negative" one - it suggests that people have been moved by what was written in some way?

I've heard that view before - including from those whose work has provoked a negative reaction - and while it might be true (for some) in theory, I must say that I seldom see it echoed in their actions. Negative reader feedback is very rarely reacted to as a compliment. And personally, I'd say that my negative reactions to a story aren't necessarily proof of intentional authorial choices succeeding.

I, too, like Kathy's post; it was good to hear from a longtime ST fan, one who has been involved with both zines and online fandom.

You can easily while away an afternoon just browsing through the SGA fuss, but I think it's particularly illuminating when you read some of the related posts as the debate moved out to wider fandom circles. I find it interesting to see how many people had not a clue about larger fandom history, or even that norms could - and do - vary widely across different fandoms.

Whereas writing a sequel that was perhaps likely to be seen by fewer people via zines etc limited the damage on its own, if the author didn't like it for whatever reason, now that "damage" is much more easily widespread and available... And so people are more defensive about it to start with?

I don't know. I think it might be part of it, but I think it has more to do with how people view fandom itself. Is fandom (either broadly speaking or restricted to your own specific fandom) a place where communal discussions and other fen interactions lead to creative expression, and the communal/interactive inspiration is expected, accepted, and important? Or is fandom a forum where you, as an individual, seek an audience for your proprietary creative expression?

Before the Internet, I would argue that stories inspired by other work or those written in reaction to other work (riffs, missing scenes, repudiations, even sequels) were another way to have fannish discussions about various issues. Yes, there were also LOCs, and reviews, individual contacts (in person, by phone, and/or by letter), and panel discussions at cons. But the stories themselves acted as powerful venues for such discussion - especially in Pros. Today, there is paradoxically both more discussion (in absolute volume) and less willingness to have discussion (proportionally).

And I absolutely loathe that normal fan discussion is now being labelled "meta" and as a result, many fen are increasingly eschewing the idea of discussion because they erroneously think discussion must mean an academic treatise! Meta-analysis has a very specific meaning. I'll even accept the term being broadened to relate to non-statistical overview analysis of fandom interactions and trends. But to call any fandom discussion "meta"? NO, a thousand times NO. It drives me nuts that a number of influential fen with academic backgrounds routinely promote such usage.

From:

I wrote so much I have to post this in two sections...!

>>>So glad that you added in your experience. Do you know if the Escapade panel was covered in any particular con reports?

I don’t believe that it was. I did a con report about their “Ageism in Fandom” panel – here:

http://catalenamara.livejournal.com/13573.html

I was planning to write a report about this panel, as well, but spring is my busiest time of year at work, and though I jotted down a few notes I never had the chance to write them up.

Here’s what I recall. I believe the panel was titled something like “Ownership in Fandom”.

There were two main topics covered. The first concerned vids, and vidders taking footage from other people’s vids and re-using it. I’m not familiar with the technology involved in making vids. I was aware that many vidders clearly do alter their vids in some ways, via color changes, effects, and speed changes. I hadn’t been aware, until this panel, that some people take this sort of altered footage from other people’s vids and incorporate it into their own work.

The second topic was, is it ever appropriate to write a sequel to someone else’s work? And, is it appropriate to use someone else’s original characters in a new work?

Someone immediately introduced the question - if it's OK for fan fic writers to use someone else's universe in the first place, why is it not OK for fan fic writers to use another fannish work as their jumping off point.

People were divided on virtually every point brought up during the course of the panel.

People responded with their personal experiences – I believe it was primarily people who had had sequels written in response to work of their own. Some had given permission, some had not. Some were fine with this, and some were furious.

Examples from fannish history were introduced.

I mentioned that writing sequels, authorized or not, was a fairly common practice in classic Trek in the 70s.

>>> Expanding a bit on my LJ post, I'd add in Star Trek-TOS as another fandom in which such a question (is permission expected or necessary) would have been looked at with bemusement during most of its thirty year history. A nod towards acknowledging the inspiration, yes, absolutely, but permission? That's a very different thing.

TOS fandom reached something of a tipping point regarding unauthorized sequels after the publication of the death story “The Rack”. Sequels appeared, both authorized and unauthorized. The authors of the original story were so angered by the publication of the unauthorized sequel that they made quite an issue of it. After that point, as far as I recall, far fewer people wrote unauthorized sequels in TOS fandom.

>>> not all the sequels or stories inspired by others in Pros have been complimentary. Many of the follow-ups to Consequences were attempts to repudiate or remodel the original. There are also several instances where follow-up stories were taking the piss regarding the originals, some more friendly than others.

There were many Pros fans in the audience, and “Consequences” and its numerous sequels were brought up. People also mentioned an example of when a fan had been so PO’d regarding another Pros story that she wrote a sequel intended to repudiate the original.

From:

>>> And too, I think opinions will vary on whether the story is a true sequel (i.e. that it accepts the prior story as "canon background" if you will and builds off it) or if the new story is sparked by the prior story, but doesn't use it as "canon background" - instead moving in a different direction.

There were so many topics I wanted to discuss in the panel – but of course time, as always, was limited. As you point out, is a story a true sequel, or is it inspired by the original story but goes off in another direction?

What about fanon? In every fandom, certain things that are ‘fanon’ were originally invented by one person. Newbies in a fandom who pick up and use fanon may have no way of knowing who originally came up with the idea.

Here’s an entertaining example of fanon becoming quasi-canon: the name of Vulcan's sister planet, T'Kuht/T'Khut. Gordon Carleton invented that name in a series of stories in the zine "Warped Space" in the 70s. That name was later used in at least some of the pro Trek novels. Of course, at least one of those novels was written by Jean Lorrah, who was known in fandom for her Sarak/Amanda stories. She later included the term in her pro novel "The Vulcan Academy Murders".

Another thought I had, but there was no time to ask: What about rebuttal stories?

I wrote a couple of stories as direct rebuttals to other stories – or rather, other categories of stories - in response to characterizations I disagreed with. Here’s an example:

http://ksarchive.com/viewstory.php?sid=30

I was inspired to write that story because a number of K/S stories published in the early 1980s depict Kirk as somehow lacking a backbone. An alien male makes a pass at him, or offers him a quid pro quo sexual arrangement in exchange for something of value to Kirk, usually Spock’s safety, and Kirk folds like he’s made of jello. He spends the rest of the story angsting over his sexual identity. (None of these stories were rape stories.)

I just could never buy that view of Kirk. There is no one more pro-active than Kirk; no one who can better seize the advantage in any situation. Thus, this story.

I wrote other stories in direct response to how someone else’s work made me think about the characters in a new way.

I’ve always been very aware of my fannish inspirations, although by the time I finish tweaking my plots, I don’t think anyone could ever figure out which story was the original inspiration.

What about cliche stories? I’ve seen two challenges recently that ask writers to take one of the many standard cliches that show up in every fandom and try to come up with something new. But what about the person who wrote that first “cliche” story? And, many people get into a fandom and promptly re-invent the wheel by writing a storyline that has already been done to death. But they have no idea their story is anything but completely original.

Well, there’s clearly room for plenty of panels on this subject...!

From:

>>>It seems like there are so many factors to take into consideration - there are clearly no blanket "rules". I liked catalenamara's summary of how she felt on seeing sequels to her own work - I'd imagine that mix of feelings would be fairly common among authors? Because it seems like it would be a compliment, somehow, to have have a sequel written, even if it was a "negative" one - it suggests that people have been moved by what was written in some way?

That's a good description of my reaction. Once I got over the surprise of seeing those sequels, and once I got over "well, I really don't *like* one of them", the feeling I wound up with was positive. Because it was clear my work had made other people think, and respond, and even if I didn't necessarily agree with the response, I felt it was all part of the fannish conversation.

From:

It's been such a long time! My 1970s era zines are in storage.

When I first thought about this incident (at that Escapade panel), I thought it had been a story, but now I'm sure it was a poem. I was in the habit of writing epic-length poems back them, poems which told a story.

It was about Spock and Zarabeth. It was published in, I'm pretty sure, an issue of the genzine "Stardate: Unknown". It would have been published probably in 1975 or 1976.

From:

>>>Oh I do like the description of how you felt when it happened to you - thanks so much for posting that! Makes sense, I think, too... the positive and the negative bits.

Exactly! My feelings were truly "mixed" about this, but on the whole I was fine with it. I do think it's important to explore that 'in-between' area. It's easy to say yes/no on subjects like this, but the feelings involved are usually a bit more muddled than that.

>>>Did the con panel come to any conclusions?

No, not surprisingly, no conclusions were reach. Various people did "agree to disagree".

From:

>>>Mostly I think I've been considering the question in my head from a reader's pov, because as you say it would often be good to have sequels to particular fics, and if it looks like the author has finished with it, then as a reader, as long as the story is "just as good" as the first ones, then does it matter in some ways who writes it? (*ducks* - I did say I was thinking as a reader there!)

As a reader, I'd love to see people finish other people's never-to-be-finished WIPs. Unfinished WIPs are one of my big "fandom peeves"...!

From:

>>>It's one reason why I prefer mailing lists over LJ: mailing list discussions have a much longer shelf life than LJ.

Agreed. LJ makes me feel disconnected from conversations. I much prefer lists.

>>>Perhaps the new tracking feature will help with LJ

How does this work? I clearly need to try it.

From:

>>>Before the Internet, I would argue that stories inspired by other work or those written in reaction to other work (riffs, missing scenes, repudiations, even sequels) were another way to have fannish discussions about various issues.

Yes, absolutely. This sort of fannish conversation - "debate by fic", as it were - has always been something I've enjoyed.

I've often talked with people who are frothing mad about some story they've read. My suggestion is always (if they're writers) to write a story which expresses their own viewpoints. It doesn't have to have anything whatsoever to do with the original piece. Just decide on your points of disagreement, and write your own story as a way of exploring your own thoughts on characterization, etc.

>>>Today, there is paradoxically both more discussion (in absolute volume) and less willingness to have discussion (proportionally).

That's pretty sad, isn't it?

>>>And I absolutely loathe that normal fan discussion is now being labelled "meta"

I am so happy I am not the only one who has problems with that label.

From:

So many interesting things to respond to but while I'm thinking about them, I thought I should explain the tracking feature because I think you will find it useful, even if limited.

If there's a discussion on LJ that you want to keep tabs on, look for the push pin icon which will be on all the comments. If you have a paid account then you can the entire post or track individual threads. But if you have a free account, then you can only track the entire post, not specific threads.

First, make sure that you are logged to LJ or the track feature will not work. Click on the push pin icon, either on the first comment or a specific thread. That will take you to the MANAGE MESSAGE SETTINGS for your account. If you have a free account, you'll see this LJ error message:

"There was an error processing your request:
Your account level doesn't allow watching threads, but you can still watch the whole post by clicking below"

Looking below the error message, you'll see the following:

Comments Notify me when... By Email Text Msg.

CHECK THE BOX for how you want the notification to be sent. For me, it's email. Under the boxes there will be two choice for what to track. Choose whether you want to track the entire discussion or the particular thread where you clicked on the push pin icon. Since I have a free account, the track thread option is listed, but I can't check it. If you have a paid account, both choices should be available to check.

CHOICES LISTED -
Someone comments under the thread by [here they will list the comment that you clicked on - for example - hagsrus in "Prosfic Sequels and also Out of the Blue" in ci5hq]

OR

Someone comments on [here they will list the title for the original post - for example - "Prosfic Sequels and also Out of the Blue" in ci5hq]

MAKE SURE THAT YOU SAVE THE CHANGES. If you have a free account, you are limited in how many posts you can track (approx. 25). Not sure if there is any limit for paid accounts.

Then each time that someone comments on the post (or the specific thread if that's what you're tracking), LJ will send a notification email with the new comment text included. Kinda similar to list mail, but of course, you can't hit reply. You need to come back to the LJ post and then post your own reply.

So far what I've noticed is that people still, by and large, follow the responsepattern that LJ has set up already, which is to consider the post "live" for about 24 hours. After that, very few people bother to comment. There are a few exceptions - this post is a great example of substantive discussion continuing - and I hope that the track feature may encourage more, but it's very early days yet to see any effect.

From:

Kathy, I know it's a bit cheeky but would you mind if I posted your replies to the Pros-list mailing list? Ideally, I'd ask you to post there yourself, but it might be a bit much to ask you to join the list just for that. *g* I was intending to let folks know that discussion is continuing on LJ at Jenny's original post, but I know there are those on the list who won't bother to visit LJ, yet would find your posts interesting. And you raise several points that haven't appeared on the list discussion yet, as well as offering additional historical perspective on debate by fiction and sequels/riffs/inspiration from Star Trek.

From:

My Stardate: Unknown series is incomplete due to a move that resulted in the loss of many of my ST zines, but I'll have a look see through those that remain. Star Trek zines had some excellent poetry, much of it a cut above other fannish poetry I've read since then.

From:

>>>My Stardate: Unknown series is incomplete due to a move that resulted in the loss of many of my ST zines

The same thing happened to me. I keep looking for zines that should be there, but aren't. Very frustrating!

>>>Star Trek zines had some excellent poetry, much of it a cut above other fannish poetry I've read since then.

Agreed, there has been some excellent poetry in TOS. It never occurred to me to wonder why that hasn't been the case in many other fandoms. I certainly don't see much of it anymore, though I still write it occasionally myself.

From:

>>>Kathy, I know it's a bit cheeky but would you mind if I posted your replies to the Pros-list mailing list?

Sure, go right ahead.

>>>Ideally, I'd ask you to post there yourself, but it might be a bit much to ask you to join the list just for that.

I didn't know about this list. Could you give me some more info? I'm on a couple of Pros fic lists, but I'd like to join a discussion list. You can email me at Kathleener at aol dot com.

>>>And you raise several points that haven't appeared on the list discussion yet, as well as offering additional historical perspective on debate by fiction and sequels/riffs/inspiration from Star Trek.

This subject interests me quite a bit. My experiences in fandom have always been about the way we, as fan writers, created our own "shared reality" separate from the source; about the way the fannish community builds upon previous works, explores common themes, as well as the way it can branch out in new directions. So much fan fic has "fannish shorthand", and not just canon references, but fanon references as well. Just look at how quickly new fandoms build up their own traditions and cliched themes.

From:

Is fandom (either broadly speaking or restricted to your own specific fandom) a place where communal discussions and other fen interactions lead to creative expression, and the communal/interactive inspiration is expected, accepted, and important? Or is fandom a forum where you, as an individual, seek an audience for your proprietary creative expression?

What an interesting question, and straight to the heart of it I suspect... I actually came into fandom, not so long ago really, as you know, with the impression that it was the former. And this you might find strange, because at the time I came in through livejournal, and I rather think the lists are more normally held to be a better bastion of such behaviour? But then maybe that's mostly from list people! There seemed to me to be alot of creativity there at the time, and people bouncing off each other (though not quite in the way you're meaning, I think) but then I guess it fell into the trough of the wave, and there was the mucking about in the sand at the bottom that seems to happen everywhere every now and then...

And again, I have to say that the only viewpoint I have of this is through what I see in Pros, and what I hear about, history-wise for Pros, and then sneaky little bits of information about what's going on in other fandoms, as has come up in this discussion, while not actually following any of those fandoms myself. But that said, it's all fascinating!

debate by fic is a wonderful idea too. I've seen where it's gone on, for example in the Consequences series, and perhaps more recently in the whole gritty-lads vs sentimental-lads fic-writing, but I've not consciously thought of it as that until now. Would you say people were conscious that that's what they were doing back-when? Perhaps seeing it up-close-and-in-a-rush-on-the-internet like this makes people more ... not aware, but immediately aware, and immediately able to respond to the come-backs as fb rather than as another fic... Which is a shame, think of all the fic we're losing! Or maybe not, cos maybe people just don't write like that any more, for various reasons...? Hmmn...

Actually, it was seeing a "debate" about the vidding not long ago that made me start thinking about sequels for fics as well. I guess I'd just assumed, before that, that people did it, and it was okay, and then someone in the vidding discussion (at ProsLit) brought up a comparison with sequels for fics... But I do think there's a difference with sequels... Maybe the vidding thing is more analagous to using someone's original universe? I guess I don't see a sequel as copying anything, it's more expanding on an idea, as you would in a discussion... and what's wrong with that? For me setting your characters in someone else's universe seems slightly different somehow... you are kind of copying their world? But then I suppose you are in a sequel too, so maybe not...

I'm very conscious as well that you've probably both heard any of my newbie-witterings a thousand times before, so thanks for being patient with me! I'm enjoying the new thoughts anyway *g*

is it ever appropriate to write a sequel to someone else’s work?
Somehow the way this question was formulated chills me... and yet if I think consciously about it, perhaps it shouldn't. Would we expect other people to jump in and write sequels to mainstream books, even if it seemed as though the author was done with it? So maybe that's a sign that I do see fandom fic as more of an interactive debate than a proprietorial thing... I'm also mixing this around in my head with something else I discovered recently - that some cultures consider stories to be owned and that no one has the right to retell a story except the "owner". My original reaction was - and remains - oh that's awful, because how can a story "live" if it's kept hidden away in a dusty box/in one person's mind... (*sees story as little thing with wings and feels silly* And yet...)

From:

Darn it, I wrote too much!

And gosh yes, newbies writing cliche fic... the very first fic I posted, tiny and little as it was, was something of a mirror to a fic that I read much much later... It was pretty simple, Bodie writing a letter to Doyle to say all the things he could never tell him, and then destroying the letter. Not at all original, and I probably didn't think it was then either if I had consciously thought about it, but I was busy being creative! I knew I hadn't seen this other person's fic, which was written a long time ago, but no one else would know that... So what if we did all take offense at that sort of thing... I mean, you just couldn't, it'd be the death! But how do you tell the difference between that and something deliberate..? *rambles*

From:

It's one reason why I prefer mailing lists over LJ: mailing list discussions have a much longer shelf life than LJ.
I have to say, I feel the complete opposite! It always seems to me that by the time I've found the time and/or had enough time to mull it over enough to comment, discussion on the lists has morphed into something else, and I'd feel silly going back and adding to the original discussion because the original question is barely visible any more - whereas on lj the discussions remain on the comm/lj sort of in their own little space, so that you can go back to them and find them, and people can see exactly what you're responding to... whether they're still there or not!

Then again, I just find lj easier to follow, conversation-wise - what with snips in the lists, and those little >>> symbols, and the *** that people use, by the time I've tracked down what's new comment and what's being responded to I'm just so frustrated!!

And the new tracking feature is great, I love it - it fixes the one disadvantage that I did think lists had over lj! And even though I'm a paid user, I tend to track the whole post rather than a thread or comment or whatever, cos you never know when someone is going to jump in...

But there is conversation everywhere, happily enough!

And if you post this to Pros-lit you'll be breaking that "terrible habit" *g*
Unfortunately the habit is time-related rather than anything else, which is where the whole lists-moving-on thing comes into it for me! And because the discussions are different, you can't really just cross-post a response to one to the other... at least not mine, the fab stuff above is a bit different, of course! But I shall try harder to cross-post, I shall... *g*

From:

Lol - I know, think of all those lovely unfinished fics out there, just waiting to be set loose... *g* I wonder if that would work as a challenge, if people could release their ideas enough to let others complete them, just for the sake of having them done... I bet someone, somewhere in fandom has had a go at that..?

From:

Not quite what you're suggesting but for a couple of years there has been/is WIP Amnesty Day publicized mainly through LJ. Not sure of the exact date (February?), as I typically fall over it when it occurs without marking the date. It's when people are encouraged to post their WIPs without any expectation that they will ever finish them, but with the hope that putting them out in public may get the stalled story going again or that it will finally give the author permission in their own mind to consider the story over and done with, to just move it off the back burner and no longer worry about it.

Some - not all by any means - of those posting will put notes on their work saying basically that they have no intention of finishing it, but anyone else is welcome to try their hand at finishing it. Not sure if anyone ever takes up that offer or not. But posting the WIPs does sometimes result in an author finally getting around to finishing it.

I very seldom will read a WIP; when I do, it is when a favorite author has left the fandom and the story is very, very old (say a decade or more) with no possibility it will ever be completed. So I generally will glance at the WIP Amnesty Day entries to see if some of my fandoms and favorite authors are posted, but I skip most entries. Plus, WIP Amnesty Day is skewed towards several fandoms that I'm just not interested in; Harry Potter and Smallville were heavily represented the first few years. Not surprising, really, as HP is known as the Fandom of WIPs.

From:

>>>Lol - I know, think of all those lovely unfinished fics out there, just waiting to be set loose... *g* I wonder if that would work as a challenge, if people could release their ideas enough to let others complete them, just for the sake of having them done... I bet someone, somewhere in fandom has had a go at that..?

That's a great challenge! I'd like to see this happen all over fandom. If authors really, truly, do not ever complete their work, it would be great if they could release them to fandom as a whole. Maybe there should be some kind of fannish 'statute of limitations'...? :-)

I stopped reading WIPs awhile back. What I do now is, for anything I think I might want to read, I save all the pieces to my hard drive, but I don't start reading until I know it's finished.

I was burned too many times by reading good WIPs that were left hanging, sometimes at a crucial spot. My first reaction to this trend was to approach WIP fic with a kind of emotional distance, because in the back of my head I'd think, "what if she never finishes it"? This wasn't satisfactory, either, because that emotional distance detracted from my enjoyment of stories. So I finally just settled on never reading any WIPs until "the end" is posted.

From:

If authors really, truly, do not ever complete their work, it would be great if they could release them to fandom as a whole. Maybe there should be some kind of fannish 'statute of limitations'...? :-)
Hee - I can imagine authors coming over all apoplectic at that idea! Cos, you know, I'm going to finish this one or that one, I really am! Which was my immediate reaction, I have to say! And yet it's such a shame to imagine them all sitting there... Maybe some very practical souls would release them out there... Ooh, there could be a kind of wip library, where when you realise you're not gonna finish a particular piece, you post it up for someone else to grab... authors looking for inspiration in their fandom could scour occasionally, to see what's up there... *dreams*

I've only been caught by wips a couple of times, one which I knew/know *is* gonna be finished - and in fact has been now, it's out to beta apparently, which makes me happy! - and the other one which was promised and promised and then just never touched again... Which was a shame, but not unexpected from this person! But I don't think I've seen many people posting wips in Pros actually...

From:

hagsrus.livejournal.com

The only Pros story I can bring to mind is Beautiful Bodie by Anne Higgins (Motet 1) -- I believe she has declared the intention to complete it some day.

(Meanwhile we do have The Sad History of Beautiful Billy Bodie by Jess to tide us over.)
http://hatstand.slashcity.net/jess/sad.pdf

From:

Oh, you taunt me with Motet 1, which I've not managed to get hold of yet!

I guess that's one of the trickier things about sequels and so on - not knowing whether an author does intend to write their own or not... which would be where the writing to ask comes in, but then that also opens them to saying "No I'm not going to, but I don't want you to either...", which... hmmn!

Actually something that does make me - well not upset, but disappointed, I guess! - is where there's a sequel to something online, but the original story is hard to get hold of cos it's only in a zine or paper circuit - eep! Also (and Hatstand does a good job of this, I think) labelling fic at the top to say whether it's a sequel to something or not! Randomly cruising through the online archives, it's easy to find fic and start to read, then discover that it's got unavailable pre- or sequels, and it's ever so frustrating! And when I'm being random about it, I'm not going to go to any of the admittedly great sequels lists to find out, just on the off chance...

Actually, as an aside, I have to say that fic by Jess at Hatstand is completely crashing my computer, whether I try to go in through the link or through Hatstand directly... is that just me, or..?

From:

hagsrus.livejournal.com

It's in PDF format which might be the problem -- there's a plain text version on the CD. Let me know at proslib@gmail com if you'd like me to e-mail you a copy.

From: