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ci5hq2007-09-07 07:57 am
byslantedlight.livejournal.com) wrote in ci5hq2007-09-07 07:57 am
The Silence of Knives - and your lads
Title: Silence of Knives
Author: Kathy Keegan
Link to story: Not online
Zine: Fantazine 5
Review:
My first thought on glancing at this story was - oh cool, fic set in Russia, because the action starts out in a place called Vazyabinsk, Cimarosa. By the second paragraph though I had been introduced to Bridgeman North Quarry, Montrose and Yokosuka, in the third paragraph I was told that "the atmosphere was oxygen poor", and by the fourth we were playing with low orbits. AU science fiction, then - set in a highly detailed, clearly conceived futuristic world.
And it really is. There are lots of secondary characters, a past for each of the lads that could be worked up as novels in their own rights (see below!), and oodles and oodles of historical, political and any-other-cal information. The plot is fairly intricate, and weaves from planet to planet via various space-empire-dangers in a reasonably realistic way, considering the genre.
The thing is... (*g*) While the story was good and meaty, and the characters well fleshed out, Bodie and Doyle didn't really seem like Bodie and Doyle to me, and that got me thinking - what exactly is it that makes the lads - the lads? And how far can an author go with characterisation and background before they stop being "the lads" that we might recognise?
Obviously it'll be different for everyone, but I wonder if there are basic characterisations that we miss if they're not there?
In "Silence of the Knives", for example, Doyle is an assassin. He's got a bit of a conscience about it, and it's explained that he's weighed up the good he does against the evil of killing etc, but basically - he's an assassin. He's paid to kill people. For me this is one of the most un-Doyle things that I can think of - in fact, for all Bodie was a mercenary, it's an un-Bodie thing as well. I'm sure there are lots of ways in which it might be made to work, and the reasoning given here is sound etc, but somehow, coupled with the other traits the author has given Doyle, for me it doesn't. Doyle is interested in money as an end in itself. He consciously, purposefully, works himself into a passion about the evil of the man he's sent to kill, but the bottom line is that he's doing it for the money - although he claims "I'm not a murderer". Despite this he's apparently dedicated himself to a "master"/guru/religion. Oh, and this means that he can "turn off pain" whenever he wants to. He's pretty much perfect at everything he does. All of which makes my head spin with not-Doyle-ness.
Bodie's loyalties, on the other hand, seem much more fluid, and somehow more socially idealistic. Bodie is effectively a spy, and is stronger in triple-think and understanding political machinations than Doyle is, which doesn't seem quite right to me either. (Not that I think ep Bodie is an idiot, but if it was going to be either of them, then Doyle always seemed a bit more interested in that sort of thing...) And as I flick back through the pages of the story, I'm not finding anything that distinguishes Bodie from any other hero - he's not exactly not Bodie, but there's nothing that seems to make him Bodie either...
So it all rang a bit strangely to me, which made me wonder what seemed to be missing about our lads that I need to see in a story. I think that, for me right now (cos we all change our minds and evolve our thoughts, right?), at the heart of my lads-verse:
Doyle is a highly skilled agent. He's got a social conscience, with which he struggles to some extent, although CI5 obviously wins. He's quick and strong, but strangely more likely to get hurt than Bodie is - maybe because he's more impetuous? He's got a scary temper - a bit like a beserker maybe *g* - and he's fairly violent despite that conscience, so he's far from a saint. He's thoughtful and keen to find out about all sorts - a detective-type mind that extends to other things, perhaps, and he's always active with something or other, physically, or else tinkering with the bikes etc. He feels for people, whether they've been hurt by society or by an individual, and we see him emotionally hurt in the eps as well. He feels physical pain too, and shows it. He's very familiar with London, has many friends and acquaintances, is very observant, and has a very good memory. He's sharp, but occasionally absent-minded, as we all can be (well, how else do you lose a car? *g*), and is fairly impatient with people who are slower than he is, or between him and something he wants.
Bodie is also a highly skilled and knowledgable agent. He seems less likely to get himself in trouble than Doyle, and outwardly more staunch when he does, but he's also often sensitive to the hurts of individuals, and to being hurt himself. He takes things a bit less seriously, outwardly at at least, although he's just as dedicated to CI5 as Doyle is, and seems to have an easier rapport with Cowley, so I can see him being loyal to Cowley as a person, whereas Doyle might be more loyal to CI5 as an entity. He seems more laid back than Doyle, somehow, although he's just as fit and active... He's well-read, possibly more so than Doyle, although more as a fact of life than as something he's trying to do. Doyle seems to strive more than Bodie, somehow, but they both come out about the same in the end. He's more likely to generalise than Doyle is? Oh, and for all he claimed "It's usually you has to pull me off" to Doyle, his temper, and what he does with it, seems alot more under control.
Both of them seem to be regular blokes - with skills that we don't see all around us in our everyday lives, but with their own everyday lives nevertheless. They're not perfect, they make mistakes, and they want Cowley's approval, and to know that what they're doing makes a difference, because they're not always sure about what they're doing themselves. Neither of them is shut off from emotion, either their own or other peoples', although, like most blokes, they tough it out rather than make a big weepy deal about it. They're casual about alot of things, and not very likely to talk in big, long, explain-y sentences to each other, because alot of their understanding is done via body language. And they've both got alot of self-confidence!
So - I think those are all things that I look for, even if just in the background, in a story. If the lads seem to veer too far from this, then I don't feel like I'm reading Pros fic. The characteristics don't have to be explained, or described, or even acted upon, it's more that if they act too differently from these characteristics, then I'm not convinced it's our lads...
And all that said, there's probably loads of things that I've missed out too, and as soon as someone says "Well, my Bodie..." I'll be jumping, pointing, and going Ooh, yes!
So... I'm curious. (*g*) What's at the very heart of your Bodie and Doyle, that you can't do without in a fic? What are the fics, especially AUs, that do and don't convince you that it's Bodie and Doyle in the story? And did you get extremely frustrated reading my ultra-long ramble up above?! (Sorry about that - though of course I'm going to post it anyway... *g*)
Oh - and one last thing. The Silence of Knives is zine only (as far as I know) but for a general feel of the story you can visit Mel Keegan's site and read about the Hellgate series - many echoes happening here, and the cover of "Deep Sky" makes me go hmmn... *g*
Author: Kathy Keegan
Link to story: Not online
Zine: Fantazine 5
Review:
My first thought on glancing at this story was - oh cool, fic set in Russia, because the action starts out in a place called Vazyabinsk, Cimarosa. By the second paragraph though I had been introduced to Bridgeman North Quarry, Montrose and Yokosuka, in the third paragraph I was told that "the atmosphere was oxygen poor", and by the fourth we were playing with low orbits. AU science fiction, then - set in a highly detailed, clearly conceived futuristic world.
And it really is. There are lots of secondary characters, a past for each of the lads that could be worked up as novels in their own rights (see below!), and oodles and oodles of historical, political and any-other-cal information. The plot is fairly intricate, and weaves from planet to planet via various space-empire-dangers in a reasonably realistic way, considering the genre.
The thing is... (*g*) While the story was good and meaty, and the characters well fleshed out, Bodie and Doyle didn't really seem like Bodie and Doyle to me, and that got me thinking - what exactly is it that makes the lads - the lads? And how far can an author go with characterisation and background before they stop being "the lads" that we might recognise?
Obviously it'll be different for everyone, but I wonder if there are basic characterisations that we miss if they're not there?
In "Silence of the Knives", for example, Doyle is an assassin. He's got a bit of a conscience about it, and it's explained that he's weighed up the good he does against the evil of killing etc, but basically - he's an assassin. He's paid to kill people. For me this is one of the most un-Doyle things that I can think of - in fact, for all Bodie was a mercenary, it's an un-Bodie thing as well. I'm sure there are lots of ways in which it might be made to work, and the reasoning given here is sound etc, but somehow, coupled with the other traits the author has given Doyle, for me it doesn't. Doyle is interested in money as an end in itself. He consciously, purposefully, works himself into a passion about the evil of the man he's sent to kill, but the bottom line is that he's doing it for the money - although he claims "I'm not a murderer". Despite this he's apparently dedicated himself to a "master"/guru/religion. Oh, and this means that he can "turn off pain" whenever he wants to. He's pretty much perfect at everything he does. All of which makes my head spin with not-Doyle-ness.
Bodie's loyalties, on the other hand, seem much more fluid, and somehow more socially idealistic. Bodie is effectively a spy, and is stronger in triple-think and understanding political machinations than Doyle is, which doesn't seem quite right to me either. (Not that I think ep Bodie is an idiot, but if it was going to be either of them, then Doyle always seemed a bit more interested in that sort of thing...) And as I flick back through the pages of the story, I'm not finding anything that distinguishes Bodie from any other hero - he's not exactly not Bodie, but there's nothing that seems to make him Bodie either...
So it all rang a bit strangely to me, which made me wonder what seemed to be missing about our lads that I need to see in a story. I think that, for me right now (cos we all change our minds and evolve our thoughts, right?), at the heart of my lads-verse:
Doyle is a highly skilled agent. He's got a social conscience, with which he struggles to some extent, although CI5 obviously wins. He's quick and strong, but strangely more likely to get hurt than Bodie is - maybe because he's more impetuous? He's got a scary temper - a bit like a beserker maybe *g* - and he's fairly violent despite that conscience, so he's far from a saint. He's thoughtful and keen to find out about all sorts - a detective-type mind that extends to other things, perhaps, and he's always active with something or other, physically, or else tinkering with the bikes etc. He feels for people, whether they've been hurt by society or by an individual, and we see him emotionally hurt in the eps as well. He feels physical pain too, and shows it. He's very familiar with London, has many friends and acquaintances, is very observant, and has a very good memory. He's sharp, but occasionally absent-minded, as we all can be (well, how else do you lose a car? *g*), and is fairly impatient with people who are slower than he is, or between him and something he wants.
Bodie is also a highly skilled and knowledgable agent. He seems less likely to get himself in trouble than Doyle, and outwardly more staunch when he does, but he's also often sensitive to the hurts of individuals, and to being hurt himself. He takes things a bit less seriously, outwardly at at least, although he's just as dedicated to CI5 as Doyle is, and seems to have an easier rapport with Cowley, so I can see him being loyal to Cowley as a person, whereas Doyle might be more loyal to CI5 as an entity. He seems more laid back than Doyle, somehow, although he's just as fit and active... He's well-read, possibly more so than Doyle, although more as a fact of life than as something he's trying to do. Doyle seems to strive more than Bodie, somehow, but they both come out about the same in the end. He's more likely to generalise than Doyle is? Oh, and for all he claimed "It's usually you has to pull me off" to Doyle, his temper, and what he does with it, seems alot more under control.
Both of them seem to be regular blokes - with skills that we don't see all around us in our everyday lives, but with their own everyday lives nevertheless. They're not perfect, they make mistakes, and they want Cowley's approval, and to know that what they're doing makes a difference, because they're not always sure about what they're doing themselves. Neither of them is shut off from emotion, either their own or other peoples', although, like most blokes, they tough it out rather than make a big weepy deal about it. They're casual about alot of things, and not very likely to talk in big, long, explain-y sentences to each other, because alot of their understanding is done via body language. And they've both got alot of self-confidence!
So - I think those are all things that I look for, even if just in the background, in a story. If the lads seem to veer too far from this, then I don't feel like I'm reading Pros fic. The characteristics don't have to be explained, or described, or even acted upon, it's more that if they act too differently from these characteristics, then I'm not convinced it's our lads...
And all that said, there's probably loads of things that I've missed out too, and as soon as someone says "Well, my Bodie..." I'll be jumping, pointing, and going Ooh, yes!
So... I'm curious. (*g*) What's at the very heart of your Bodie and Doyle, that you can't do without in a fic? What are the fics, especially AUs, that do and don't convince you that it's Bodie and Doyle in the story? And did you get extremely frustrated reading my ultra-long ramble up above?! (Sorry about that - though of course I'm going to post it anyway... *g*)
Oh - and one last thing. The Silence of Knives is zine only (as far as I know) but for a general feel of the story you can visit Mel Keegan's site and read about the Hellgate series - many echoes happening here, and the cover of "Deep Sky" makes me go hmmn... *g*
no subject
Well...yeah! But then we have to start figuring in what was the most likely dramatic effect intended by the writers and director, and that REALLY complicates matters.
No, I think the other way around - I think that Doyle shot her, although Julia did shoot. At the end Bodie takes the gun away from her and says "I think this'll be safer in my hands", which suggests to me that she shot well wide...
Unless Doyle had special cornering bullets, there's no way he made that shot. Inge's upstairs and around the corner when he bursts in. I think Bodie's comment stands either way because Julie is clearly not experienced with guns, and just as likely to shoot herself and Bodie next -- you see this exact scene in a million westerns and cop shows when the non-violent love interest (sorry!) is forced to kill in order to save the violent hero of the piece.
Yeah, I'm sure that's part of why Bodie's angry (my slashy brain adds another part!) but he also says that CI5 regs state that Doyle should have shot from the door, not come into the room and shot - suggesting that Doyle ignored the regs and put himself in danger to make sure that he wouldn't shoot Bodie by accident.
That's certainly true, but does it actually count as Doyle saving Bodie, because it looks like they were just following their plan, with Doyle maybe putting himself at extra risk to avoid taking Bodie out.
Oh, I've never watched it that way, I always see Doyle as basically free before then, because he easily overcame Parker and would have been able to escape. He'd have done this whether or not Bodie (and CI5 in fact) opened fire. But yeah, Bodie acted before Cowley's orders, because he wanted to save Doyle...
So that little acknowledging nod that Doyle gives Bodie at the end when he's standing there rubbing his wrists, you take that to be just a simple "Hiya," and not "Thanks, mate, I owe you one."?
In Hunter/Hunted, Bodie's already tracking Doyle down
Well, Bodie has got as far as knowing Brownie was involved, but he would have had no way to find Doyle in the huge London docks, except that Cowley had figured out the Kathy Mason connection and called Bodie in, so that they could (presumably) frighten the plan and Doyle's whereabouts out of her...
Ah, but this is Seventies/Eighties cop TV! Bodie would OF COURSE have tracked Doyle down. However, since they stuck Cowley into it, I concede we're supposed to see it as a joint rescue effort.
DiaG... so my thought is no one else would arrive in time.
It's definitely possible... depends how long Doyle would have survived, just lying there really... *g*
Well, from a dramatic standpoint...all that Bodie rushing around and stuffing tea towels up Doyles ruined jacket, the scene surely only exists to show us Bodie saving Doyle? Otherwise we'd have a scene similar to what we get in Klansmen where we cut instantly to Bodie being wheeled into the hospital and Doyle sniffing over his fallen form. Every scene, every frame, has to be there for a purpose.
Ooh yes, Fugitive - good call! And I've just realised, they come out even in that ep then! I wonder if anyone's mentioned that in a fic!
What a great poll this would be! People could vote on who saves whom in which episodes! Could be very funny.
no subject
Ha - now we're getting into that authorial intention question which I said (twice!) that I'd expand on, and then never did!
Unless Doyle had special cornering bullets, there's no way he made that shot.
*puts on list to watch tonight when room-mate and child are out*
you see this exact scene in a million westerns and cop shows when the non-violent love interest (sorry!) is forced to kill in order to save the violent hero of the piece.
Yeah, but I don't care about those shows! *g*
because it looks like they were just following their plan, with Doyle maybe putting himself at extra risk to avoid taking Bodie out.
Well, you can say that about Ojuka or MWaP or DiaG, for example, too - Bodie just pre-empted a plan that was being followed anyway, so what counts and what doesn't?
So that little acknowledging nod ... you take that to be just a simple "Hiya," and not "Thanks, mate, I owe you one."?
Absolutely not. I take it to mean something along the lines of "Thanks for being here, thanks for caring, thanks for working as my partner even when we're not together, thanks for watching my back, thanks for coming to me at the end, thanks for being still alive, thanks for wanting me to still be alive, this is our life, this is what we do, look, we did it again, it all came out okay, not to worry, we got away with it this time as well, we did our job, well done us, my god I want to fuck you silly right now, fancy a drink when the Cow finally lets us go?". Roughly. *g*
the scene surely only exists to show us Bodie saving Doyle
Yes of course, and to show us the depth of relationship between them too, in Bodie's competent panic, in Doyle's silence, in the way they're together in the ambulance, etc etc. Again, back to my original question, it's all part of the essence of the characterisation, and trying to take one part of it - did Bodie technically save Doyle or would Doyle have lived until Cowley got there? - doesn't make any sense. There's an amalgamation of motives and emotions and so on that go into making them both. Yes, each scene is there for a purpose - exactly - but each scene only works in relation with all the other scenes, all the other parts of a characterisation that we, as individual fans, pick out for ourselves as meaning "Bodie and Doyle"...
no subject