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ci5hq2007-09-07 07:57 am
byslantedlight.livejournal.com) wrote in ci5hq2007-09-07 07:57 am
The Silence of Knives - and your lads
Title: Silence of Knives
Author: Kathy Keegan
Link to story: Not online
Zine: Fantazine 5
Review:
My first thought on glancing at this story was - oh cool, fic set in Russia, because the action starts out in a place called Vazyabinsk, Cimarosa. By the second paragraph though I had been introduced to Bridgeman North Quarry, Montrose and Yokosuka, in the third paragraph I was told that "the atmosphere was oxygen poor", and by the fourth we were playing with low orbits. AU science fiction, then - set in a highly detailed, clearly conceived futuristic world.
And it really is. There are lots of secondary characters, a past for each of the lads that could be worked up as novels in their own rights (see below!), and oodles and oodles of historical, political and any-other-cal information. The plot is fairly intricate, and weaves from planet to planet via various space-empire-dangers in a reasonably realistic way, considering the genre.
The thing is... (*g*) While the story was good and meaty, and the characters well fleshed out, Bodie and Doyle didn't really seem like Bodie and Doyle to me, and that got me thinking - what exactly is it that makes the lads - the lads? And how far can an author go with characterisation and background before they stop being "the lads" that we might recognise?
Obviously it'll be different for everyone, but I wonder if there are basic characterisations that we miss if they're not there?
In "Silence of the Knives", for example, Doyle is an assassin. He's got a bit of a conscience about it, and it's explained that he's weighed up the good he does against the evil of killing etc, but basically - he's an assassin. He's paid to kill people. For me this is one of the most un-Doyle things that I can think of - in fact, for all Bodie was a mercenary, it's an un-Bodie thing as well. I'm sure there are lots of ways in which it might be made to work, and the reasoning given here is sound etc, but somehow, coupled with the other traits the author has given Doyle, for me it doesn't. Doyle is interested in money as an end in itself. He consciously, purposefully, works himself into a passion about the evil of the man he's sent to kill, but the bottom line is that he's doing it for the money - although he claims "I'm not a murderer". Despite this he's apparently dedicated himself to a "master"/guru/religion. Oh, and this means that he can "turn off pain" whenever he wants to. He's pretty much perfect at everything he does. All of which makes my head spin with not-Doyle-ness.
Bodie's loyalties, on the other hand, seem much more fluid, and somehow more socially idealistic. Bodie is effectively a spy, and is stronger in triple-think and understanding political machinations than Doyle is, which doesn't seem quite right to me either. (Not that I think ep Bodie is an idiot, but if it was going to be either of them, then Doyle always seemed a bit more interested in that sort of thing...) And as I flick back through the pages of the story, I'm not finding anything that distinguishes Bodie from any other hero - he's not exactly not Bodie, but there's nothing that seems to make him Bodie either...
So it all rang a bit strangely to me, which made me wonder what seemed to be missing about our lads that I need to see in a story. I think that, for me right now (cos we all change our minds and evolve our thoughts, right?), at the heart of my lads-verse:
Doyle is a highly skilled agent. He's got a social conscience, with which he struggles to some extent, although CI5 obviously wins. He's quick and strong, but strangely more likely to get hurt than Bodie is - maybe because he's more impetuous? He's got a scary temper - a bit like a beserker maybe *g* - and he's fairly violent despite that conscience, so he's far from a saint. He's thoughtful and keen to find out about all sorts - a detective-type mind that extends to other things, perhaps, and he's always active with something or other, physically, or else tinkering with the bikes etc. He feels for people, whether they've been hurt by society or by an individual, and we see him emotionally hurt in the eps as well. He feels physical pain too, and shows it. He's very familiar with London, has many friends and acquaintances, is very observant, and has a very good memory. He's sharp, but occasionally absent-minded, as we all can be (well, how else do you lose a car? *g*), and is fairly impatient with people who are slower than he is, or between him and something he wants.
Bodie is also a highly skilled and knowledgable agent. He seems less likely to get himself in trouble than Doyle, and outwardly more staunch when he does, but he's also often sensitive to the hurts of individuals, and to being hurt himself. He takes things a bit less seriously, outwardly at at least, although he's just as dedicated to CI5 as Doyle is, and seems to have an easier rapport with Cowley, so I can see him being loyal to Cowley as a person, whereas Doyle might be more loyal to CI5 as an entity. He seems more laid back than Doyle, somehow, although he's just as fit and active... He's well-read, possibly more so than Doyle, although more as a fact of life than as something he's trying to do. Doyle seems to strive more than Bodie, somehow, but they both come out about the same in the end. He's more likely to generalise than Doyle is? Oh, and for all he claimed "It's usually you has to pull me off" to Doyle, his temper, and what he does with it, seems alot more under control.
Both of them seem to be regular blokes - with skills that we don't see all around us in our everyday lives, but with their own everyday lives nevertheless. They're not perfect, they make mistakes, and they want Cowley's approval, and to know that what they're doing makes a difference, because they're not always sure about what they're doing themselves. Neither of them is shut off from emotion, either their own or other peoples', although, like most blokes, they tough it out rather than make a big weepy deal about it. They're casual about alot of things, and not very likely to talk in big, long, explain-y sentences to each other, because alot of their understanding is done via body language. And they've both got alot of self-confidence!
So - I think those are all things that I look for, even if just in the background, in a story. If the lads seem to veer too far from this, then I don't feel like I'm reading Pros fic. The characteristics don't have to be explained, or described, or even acted upon, it's more that if they act too differently from these characteristics, then I'm not convinced it's our lads...
And all that said, there's probably loads of things that I've missed out too, and as soon as someone says "Well, my Bodie..." I'll be jumping, pointing, and going Ooh, yes!
So... I'm curious. (*g*) What's at the very heart of your Bodie and Doyle, that you can't do without in a fic? What are the fics, especially AUs, that do and don't convince you that it's Bodie and Doyle in the story? And did you get extremely frustrated reading my ultra-long ramble up above?! (Sorry about that - though of course I'm going to post it anyway... *g*)
Oh - and one last thing. The Silence of Knives is zine only (as far as I know) but for a general feel of the story you can visit Mel Keegan's site and read about the Hellgate series - many echoes happening here, and the cover of "Deep Sky" makes me go hmmn... *g*
Author: Kathy Keegan
Link to story: Not online
Zine: Fantazine 5
Review:
My first thought on glancing at this story was - oh cool, fic set in Russia, because the action starts out in a place called Vazyabinsk, Cimarosa. By the second paragraph though I had been introduced to Bridgeman North Quarry, Montrose and Yokosuka, in the third paragraph I was told that "the atmosphere was oxygen poor", and by the fourth we were playing with low orbits. AU science fiction, then - set in a highly detailed, clearly conceived futuristic world.
And it really is. There are lots of secondary characters, a past for each of the lads that could be worked up as novels in their own rights (see below!), and oodles and oodles of historical, political and any-other-cal information. The plot is fairly intricate, and weaves from planet to planet via various space-empire-dangers in a reasonably realistic way, considering the genre.
The thing is... (*g*) While the story was good and meaty, and the characters well fleshed out, Bodie and Doyle didn't really seem like Bodie and Doyle to me, and that got me thinking - what exactly is it that makes the lads - the lads? And how far can an author go with characterisation and background before they stop being "the lads" that we might recognise?
Obviously it'll be different for everyone, but I wonder if there are basic characterisations that we miss if they're not there?
In "Silence of the Knives", for example, Doyle is an assassin. He's got a bit of a conscience about it, and it's explained that he's weighed up the good he does against the evil of killing etc, but basically - he's an assassin. He's paid to kill people. For me this is one of the most un-Doyle things that I can think of - in fact, for all Bodie was a mercenary, it's an un-Bodie thing as well. I'm sure there are lots of ways in which it might be made to work, and the reasoning given here is sound etc, but somehow, coupled with the other traits the author has given Doyle, for me it doesn't. Doyle is interested in money as an end in itself. He consciously, purposefully, works himself into a passion about the evil of the man he's sent to kill, but the bottom line is that he's doing it for the money - although he claims "I'm not a murderer". Despite this he's apparently dedicated himself to a "master"/guru/religion. Oh, and this means that he can "turn off pain" whenever he wants to. He's pretty much perfect at everything he does. All of which makes my head spin with not-Doyle-ness.
Bodie's loyalties, on the other hand, seem much more fluid, and somehow more socially idealistic. Bodie is effectively a spy, and is stronger in triple-think and understanding political machinations than Doyle is, which doesn't seem quite right to me either. (Not that I think ep Bodie is an idiot, but if it was going to be either of them, then Doyle always seemed a bit more interested in that sort of thing...) And as I flick back through the pages of the story, I'm not finding anything that distinguishes Bodie from any other hero - he's not exactly not Bodie, but there's nothing that seems to make him Bodie either...
So it all rang a bit strangely to me, which made me wonder what seemed to be missing about our lads that I need to see in a story. I think that, for me right now (cos we all change our minds and evolve our thoughts, right?), at the heart of my lads-verse:
Doyle is a highly skilled agent. He's got a social conscience, with which he struggles to some extent, although CI5 obviously wins. He's quick and strong, but strangely more likely to get hurt than Bodie is - maybe because he's more impetuous? He's got a scary temper - a bit like a beserker maybe *g* - and he's fairly violent despite that conscience, so he's far from a saint. He's thoughtful and keen to find out about all sorts - a detective-type mind that extends to other things, perhaps, and he's always active with something or other, physically, or else tinkering with the bikes etc. He feels for people, whether they've been hurt by society or by an individual, and we see him emotionally hurt in the eps as well. He feels physical pain too, and shows it. He's very familiar with London, has many friends and acquaintances, is very observant, and has a very good memory. He's sharp, but occasionally absent-minded, as we all can be (well, how else do you lose a car? *g*), and is fairly impatient with people who are slower than he is, or between him and something he wants.
Bodie is also a highly skilled and knowledgable agent. He seems less likely to get himself in trouble than Doyle, and outwardly more staunch when he does, but he's also often sensitive to the hurts of individuals, and to being hurt himself. He takes things a bit less seriously, outwardly at at least, although he's just as dedicated to CI5 as Doyle is, and seems to have an easier rapport with Cowley, so I can see him being loyal to Cowley as a person, whereas Doyle might be more loyal to CI5 as an entity. He seems more laid back than Doyle, somehow, although he's just as fit and active... He's well-read, possibly more so than Doyle, although more as a fact of life than as something he's trying to do. Doyle seems to strive more than Bodie, somehow, but they both come out about the same in the end. He's more likely to generalise than Doyle is? Oh, and for all he claimed "It's usually you has to pull me off" to Doyle, his temper, and what he does with it, seems alot more under control.
Both of them seem to be regular blokes - with skills that we don't see all around us in our everyday lives, but with their own everyday lives nevertheless. They're not perfect, they make mistakes, and they want Cowley's approval, and to know that what they're doing makes a difference, because they're not always sure about what they're doing themselves. Neither of them is shut off from emotion, either their own or other peoples', although, like most blokes, they tough it out rather than make a big weepy deal about it. They're casual about alot of things, and not very likely to talk in big, long, explain-y sentences to each other, because alot of their understanding is done via body language. And they've both got alot of self-confidence!
So - I think those are all things that I look for, even if just in the background, in a story. If the lads seem to veer too far from this, then I don't feel like I'm reading Pros fic. The characteristics don't have to be explained, or described, or even acted upon, it's more that if they act too differently from these characteristics, then I'm not convinced it's our lads...
And all that said, there's probably loads of things that I've missed out too, and as soon as someone says "Well, my Bodie..." I'll be jumping, pointing, and going Ooh, yes!
So... I'm curious. (*g*) What's at the very heart of your Bodie and Doyle, that you can't do without in a fic? What are the fics, especially AUs, that do and don't convince you that it's Bodie and Doyle in the story? And did you get extremely frustrated reading my ultra-long ramble up above?! (Sorry about that - though of course I'm going to post it anyway... *g*)
Oh - and one last thing. The Silence of Knives is zine only (as far as I know) but for a general feel of the story you can visit Mel Keegan's site and read about the Hellgate series - many echoes happening here, and the cover of "Deep Sky" makes me go hmmn... *g*
no subject
I meant that in purely relative terms. Doyle is tough as nails and certainly resilient, but he does seem to feel pain more obviously than Bodie, and he does seem to worry about getting killed more than Bodie -- or at least shows his fear in little flinches, winces, etc. They may technically be injured the same amount of times, but Doyle's injuries seem worse somehow -- or maybe, as you say, it's all in the way he suffers so beautifully -- and noticeably.
Getting shot in the heart for example, seems a little more drastic than Bodie's stabbing, despite Bodie's feverish writhing. We see Doyle in a sling, on crutches, in hospital -- he gets all the stage props indicating serious injury. Even when Bodie is hospitalized in Klansmen there's a noticeable lack of any medical detail of any kind. A pretty nurse, a wet cloth and a few stitches seem to do it for Bodie while we've got Doyle on a ventilator, etc.
Which isn't to say that Doyle isn't just as tough in his own way, especially since he's so regularly injured in ways that would probably cripple anyone else.
Personally I'd say that Doyle is prettier when he's suffering seriously (Isn't that awful - but you know what I mean?) but no less likely to recover quickly/tougher than Bodie... *g* Which is why it bugs me when he is portrayed as a wimp, because, as msmoat said, they're tough!
Absolutely. I wouldn't argue that -- in fact, I guess you could make a case for him being tougher considering the fact that he's able to put his concerns and low pain threshold aside and jump into any fight going.
I'd like to count up the saving-each-other's-bottoms thing too... don't think that's in Pros Insight. Hmmn - Bodie saves Doyle from being shot in Backtrack, Doyle saves Bodie in Ojuka. Erm... any more for any more?!
Well, let's see. Off-hand, Bodie saves Doyle in Looking After Annie, Blind Run, Hunter/Hunted, A Stirring of Dust, Involvement -- and given the gravity of Doyle's wound and the time factor -- Discovered in a Graveyard.
Yes, the humour! The not-taking-it-too-seriously thing, which I think is partly English,
Holy moly. I'd have to argue with THAT. Wisecracks under pressure are about as typically American as you get -- maybe it's a North American thing -- I'd hate to insult the Canadians -- and in that case I guess you could debate whether it has to do with an Anglo heritage, but...sheesh. ;-)
but partly them as well... And there is fic that falls down on that, I think, that makes them very earnest... alot of Jane's stuff actually, I think...
A lot of everyone's stuff, frankly. Humor is pretty hard to do, especially if the writer is trying to balance with angst -- and angst does seem to be more popular than laughs in Pros.
Banter is even harder -- partly because it's as much about timing as it is being funny.
And that they do trust each other - despite Involvement and Fall Girl...
I like the little message Doyle leaves for Bodie on the interrogation tape in Fall Girl. It's a nice touch. And of course in neither case do we know what the other would have ultimately done had things gone the wrong way for the partner under fire.
no subject
Holy moly. I'd have to argue with THAT. Wisecracks under pressure are about as typically American as you get -- maybe it's a North American thing -- I'd hate to insult the Canadians -- and in that case I guess you could debate whether it has to do with an Anglo heritage, but...sheesh. ;-)
Actually, this is still wrong -- what about the Irish and the Scots and the Welsh? ENGLISH???? I mean, at least include the rest of Britain. ;-D
no subject
Ah well, I was talking about the lads, and they're indisputably English, hence the "partly English" in my sentence. I certainly didn't mean to imply that no one else in the world has a sense of humour - that would be silly! (Although there are definitely cultures that are more serious than others, and sub-cultures within cultures, and sub-sub... *g* And it's also true that "English" doesn't equate to "the rest of Britain" - I definitely know Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Manx people who would violently object to being lumped in with the English! But nope, in this case - the lads are English!)
Off-hand, Bodie saves Doyle...
Yeah, he does, but it works the other way around too. Hmmn, this is what I've got so far...
Bodie saves Doyle:
Backtrack - when Doyle gets a stoppage
Involvement - when Bodie kills Conroy who was aiming at Doyle
Look After Annie - when Doyle is surrounded by the thugs
Man Without a Past - Bodie arrives before Doyle is found by the baddies
Stirring of Dust - Bodie and Lewis arrive to rescue Doyle when he's been tied up, although it could be said that Doyle saved himself by kicking Callinari through the window...
(5)
Doyle saves Bodie:
Close Quarters - Doyle shoots Inge Helmut at the end
Fugitive - chases Bodie to rip the bomb from him
It's Only A Beautiful Picture - Doyle threatens the baddies with fire and petrol to distract them and give Bodie a chance to fight back
Killer with a Long Arm - puts himself at risk to be sure that Bodie is safe from his shot
Ojuka Situation - shoots man who was about to shoot Bodie
Purging of CI5 - Doyle disarms the bomb in the phone (tho' presumably the bomb squad would have come and done it if asked)
Wild Justice - Doyle comes to Bodie's rescue during the fight in the forest, and takes out several of the men, including the one on Bodie's back.
(7)
Three I'm not so sure about:
Blind Run - does Bodie save Doyle's life, or does he complete the job? Would he have gone back for Leila etc if Doyle wasn't there?
DiaG - yes, technically, but given that everyone else had been alerted too, it's quite honestly luck that he's first on the scene...
H/H - does Bodie actually save Doyle in the end though? It's Cowley who figures it out, and they turn up at the docks together, albeit it's Bodie who aims the laser sight...
So I'm making it either 5-7, or being generous, 8-7. So actually pretty equal still. I do agree that Bodie seems more protective (FF, Ojuka, DiaG), although actually Doyle's got alot of protective moments too - when he thinks Bodie's been shot and leans over to hear his heart (can't remember which one that's in!), in Close Quarters when he charges up the stairs and holds on to Bodie, gazing into his eyes, to be sure he's okay (also - *swoons for the slash* *g*), and when he jumps into the ambulance, shouts Bodie's name, and grabs him around the waist to see if he's okay in... erm... you know, thingie *g* And of course Klansman.
I do agree that at first glance it totally seems the other way around though...
And you're right too, humour and banter are hard to do. Apart from making sure something is funny, there's keeping the balance - I'd say the humour used by the lads is pretty light in fact, it's not really what I'd call "wisecracking" even. Like everything else, it's all about context, I guess...
no subject
Doesn't Julie shoot Inge? Doyle looks to be too late to me. (Not that he didn't try like hell, which should probably count.)
Killer with a Long Arm - puts himself at risk to be sure that Bodie is safe from his shot
Is that what's going on there? I always thought Bodie was angry because Doyle had left HIM too long in jeopardy. Hmmm...I'll have to watch that again.
Ojuka Situation - shoots man who was about to shoot Bodie
At the end, though, I think we're supposed to believe that Bodie opening fire is what made Doyle's escape from the house ultimately possible -- although he saves himself from Parker. Bodie seems to be taking credit for it when he talks to Cowley about letting them "get away with it."
I guess some of this is speculation about what the most likely scenario would be. In Hunter/Hunted, Bodie's already tracking Doyle down, and in theory could have found him and saved him even without knowing the why behind what was happening.
DiaG...hmmm. By the time Bodie has run up the fire escape, dealt with Doyle's wounds, run back down and summoned an ambulance there's still no sign of other relief, so my thought is no one else would arrive in time.
Oh, and what's the one with the lady terrorist working in the library? Bodie shoots the guy before he can shoot Doyle in the stairwell?
Blind Run, whatever the motivation -- and Bodie does clearly say "Is Doyle in there?" -- there's no way Doyle would have escaped without his help. No other help was coming. Doyle acknowledges Bodie saving him at the end when he jokes he's too personally involved to question Lelia.
And what about the final episode? Does Bodie keep Williams from shooting Doyle or was Williams not going to shoot? Did Williams believe that Doyle was an assassin and so expendable in order to preserve his own cover?
Very interesting -- I'd like to watch episode by episode and really count it up.
no subject
no subject
Doesn't Julie shoot Inge? Doyle looks to be too late to me. (Not that he didn't try like hell, which should probably count.)
No, I think the other way around - I think that Doyle shot her, although Julia did shoot. At the end Bodie takes the gun away from her and says "I think this'll be safer in my hands", which suggests to me that she shot well wide...
Is that what's going on there? I always thought Bodie was angry because Doyle had left HIM too long in jeopardy. Hmmm...I'll have to watch that again.
Yeah, I'm sure that's part of why Bodie's angry (my slashy brain adds another part!) but he also says that CI5 regs state that Doyle should have shot from the door, not come into the room and shot - suggesting that Doyle ignored the regs and put himself in danger to make sure that he wouldn't shoot Bodie by accident.
At the end, though, I think we're supposed to believe that Bodie opening fire is what made Doyle's escape from the house ultimately possible
Oh, I've never watched it that way, I always see Doyle as basically free before then, because he easily overcame Parker and would have been able to escape. He'd have done this whether or not Bodie (and CI5 in fact) opened fire. But yeah, Bodie acted before Cowley's orders, because he wanted to save Doyle...
In Hunter/Hunted, Bodie's already tracking Doyle down
Well, Bodie has got as far as knowing Brownie was involved, but he would have had no way to find Doyle in the huge London docks, except that Cowley had figured out the Kathy Mason connection and called Bodie in, so that they could (presumably) frighten the plan and Doyle's whereabouts out of her...
DiaG... so my thought is no one else would arrive in time.
It's definitely possible... depends how long Doyle would have survived, just lying there really... *g*
Oh, and what's the one with the lady terrorist working in the library? Bodie shoots the guy before he can shoot Doyle in the stairwell?
Ooh yes, Fugitive - good call! And I've just realised, they come out even in that ep then! I wonder if anyone's mentioned that in a fic!
no subject
Ah, this is the thing isn't it (and as
Does Bodie keep Williams from shooting Doyle or was Williams not going to shoot?
See I don't count this, because Doyle was never in any real danger, because Bodie was there all the time, and Bodie would never have had any intention of letting Williams shoot! He might have left it until the last minute to see what Williams would do (since he'd been so reluctant before - for reasons we then found out) but Bodie didn't save his life, because Doyle wasn't in danger at that point!
Wouldn't the Russian agent have finished Doyle off right after he killed the girl?
Again, it's all about interpretation and speculation... See, I don't think Terkoff would have - I think he'd have counted on Doyle being out of the game, and thought it more valuable to make his own escape, since he was clearly being chased at that point. So, to me, Bodie definitely saved the girl, but was too late to save Doyle from being shot...
It's interesting to see how many different interpretations there always are though - no wonder the world is a pretty messy place, when don't even agree about tv shows! *g*
no subject
It is interesting, yes. When you really start debating which is an actual save versus which is only tangential rescue, well...still plenty of room for debate. ;-)
What amuses the heck of me is that it actually MATTERS to anyone how many times Doyle is rescued by Bodie. That for some fans there is a desire -- a need -- for it to be even and equal. And this makes me think of the great efforts in fics to give them almost identical strengths -- and no weaknesses. Thus making them almost interchangeable but for surface traits like appearance and dialog tics.
Because as everyone here lists "the essence" of Doyle and Bodie, they seem to share almost identical essence, don't they? Almost all the qualities listed are dual qualities -- and carefully measured out in equal doses.
True there are little character tags -- Bodie likes sweets, Doyle can dance, blah, blah, blah, but none of these are really at the "essence" of a person or a character, are they? When it comes to the core values most seem to want them to be equally strong, brave, tough, successful, smart....
And yet we know the original writers intended them to contrast and highlight each other. Two sides of a coin?
no subject
For me it has nothing to do with that - and that has nothing to do with their equality either. And I'm not at all sure where you get the idea that their "essences" are made up of identical dual qualities to be honest - in fact I'd've hoped that my original post explained that was exactly the problem I had with their characters in SotK, that they were interchangable!
My point in mentioning the rescues, as I've said elsewhere, was to note that any characterisation which has Bodie constantly rescuing Doyle, and Doyle constantly in need of rescue, and Bodie only ever perfectly competent in contrast, is, for me, flawed. It's not something that I see in canon, and so that characterisation stretches my belief in a story.
I do think that they share some qualities - professionally they have to balance each other rather than be carried by each other, when it comes down to it. So yeah, they're pretty much equally brave, equally strong, equally fast, equally good shots etc. But those are skills, they're not necessarily character traits - although, of course, they add to their characters, and may have been formed by them! They do both have weaknesses - and I've mentioned some already - Doyle's tendency to impetuousness for example. Bodie's tendency to brush things aside might be another. Doyle's temper and the way he resorts to violence, despite what he espouses. Cf Bodie blowing off an obbo, and Doyle covering for him - what tensions might that actually raise between them? The way Doyle got so serious about Ann Holly in just two weeks is another example of a character flaw, one that's been well-covered by fic. I'd find them very boring characters if they didn't have any flaws - I don't see any point in writing, reading or watching perfect characters.
But I'm not sure that most fans do see them as perfectly equal characters - I know I don't! Balancing essences, yes, but not dual essences...
no subject
Well...yeah! But then we have to start figuring in what was the most likely dramatic effect intended by the writers and director, and that REALLY complicates matters.
No, I think the other way around - I think that Doyle shot her, although Julia did shoot. At the end Bodie takes the gun away from her and says "I think this'll be safer in my hands", which suggests to me that she shot well wide...
Unless Doyle had special cornering bullets, there's no way he made that shot. Inge's upstairs and around the corner when he bursts in. I think Bodie's comment stands either way because Julie is clearly not experienced with guns, and just as likely to shoot herself and Bodie next -- you see this exact scene in a million westerns and cop shows when the non-violent love interest (sorry!) is forced to kill in order to save the violent hero of the piece.
Yeah, I'm sure that's part of why Bodie's angry (my slashy brain adds another part!) but he also says that CI5 regs state that Doyle should have shot from the door, not come into the room and shot - suggesting that Doyle ignored the regs and put himself in danger to make sure that he wouldn't shoot Bodie by accident.
That's certainly true, but does it actually count as Doyle saving Bodie, because it looks like they were just following their plan, with Doyle maybe putting himself at extra risk to avoid taking Bodie out.
Oh, I've never watched it that way, I always see Doyle as basically free before then, because he easily overcame Parker and would have been able to escape. He'd have done this whether or not Bodie (and CI5 in fact) opened fire. But yeah, Bodie acted before Cowley's orders, because he wanted to save Doyle...
So that little acknowledging nod that Doyle gives Bodie at the end when he's standing there rubbing his wrists, you take that to be just a simple "Hiya," and not "Thanks, mate, I owe you one."?
In Hunter/Hunted, Bodie's already tracking Doyle down
Well, Bodie has got as far as knowing Brownie was involved, but he would have had no way to find Doyle in the huge London docks, except that Cowley had figured out the Kathy Mason connection and called Bodie in, so that they could (presumably) frighten the plan and Doyle's whereabouts out of her...
Ah, but this is Seventies/Eighties cop TV! Bodie would OF COURSE have tracked Doyle down. However, since they stuck Cowley into it, I concede we're supposed to see it as a joint rescue effort.
DiaG... so my thought is no one else would arrive in time.
It's definitely possible... depends how long Doyle would have survived, just lying there really... *g*
Well, from a dramatic standpoint...all that Bodie rushing around and stuffing tea towels up Doyles ruined jacket, the scene surely only exists to show us Bodie saving Doyle? Otherwise we'd have a scene similar to what we get in Klansmen where we cut instantly to Bodie being wheeled into the hospital and Doyle sniffing over his fallen form. Every scene, every frame, has to be there for a purpose.
Ooh yes, Fugitive - good call! And I've just realised, they come out even in that ep then! I wonder if anyone's mentioned that in a fic!
What a great poll this would be! People could vote on who saves whom in which episodes! Could be very funny.
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Ha - now we're getting into that authorial intention question which I said (twice!) that I'd expand on, and then never did!
Unless Doyle had special cornering bullets, there's no way he made that shot.
*puts on list to watch tonight when room-mate and child are out*
you see this exact scene in a million westerns and cop shows when the non-violent love interest (sorry!) is forced to kill in order to save the violent hero of the piece.
Yeah, but I don't care about those shows! *g*
because it looks like they were just following their plan, with Doyle maybe putting himself at extra risk to avoid taking Bodie out.
Well, you can say that about Ojuka or MWaP or DiaG, for example, too - Bodie just pre-empted a plan that was being followed anyway, so what counts and what doesn't?
So that little acknowledging nod ... you take that to be just a simple "Hiya," and not "Thanks, mate, I owe you one."?
Absolutely not. I take it to mean something along the lines of "Thanks for being here, thanks for caring, thanks for working as my partner even when we're not together, thanks for watching my back, thanks for coming to me at the end, thanks for being still alive, thanks for wanting me to still be alive, this is our life, this is what we do, look, we did it again, it all came out okay, not to worry, we got away with it this time as well, we did our job, well done us, my god I want to fuck you silly right now, fancy a drink when the Cow finally lets us go?". Roughly. *g*
the scene surely only exists to show us Bodie saving Doyle
Yes of course, and to show us the depth of relationship between them too, in Bodie's competent panic, in Doyle's silence, in the way they're together in the ambulance, etc etc. Again, back to my original question, it's all part of the essence of the characterisation, and trying to take one part of it - did Bodie technically save Doyle or would Doyle have lived until Cowley got there? - doesn't make any sense. There's an amalgamation of motives and emotions and so on that go into making them both. Yes, each scene is there for a purpose - exactly - but each scene only works in relation with all the other scenes, all the other parts of a characterisation that we, as individual fans, pick out for ourselves as meaning "Bodie and Doyle"...
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I personally think that they guard each other's back so well that it's impossible to score.
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Totally agree with you about the way they guard each other's back though - there's so many times it happens just in the course of their job, almost accidentally because they happen to be doing the job at the same time, that it's really impossible to count...!
My original point in starting the count was to demonstrate that as much as fanfic focuses on Bodie saving Doyle (and I do it myself, it's such a lovely thing!) it's not actually canon that Doyle is the only one, or even most of the time, to need saving! As you say, they really are equal in matters like that, so when a story gets too carried away with the pathetic-ness of Doyle in needing to be saved, and the strength of Bodie in always being able to do so, then I start to have doubts about the characterisation...
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Well, we've seen that's debatable. Our final counts were vastly different. ;-)
As you say, they really are equal in matters like that, so when a story gets too carried away with the pathetic-ness of Doyle in needing to be saved, and the strength of Bodie in always being able to do so, then I start to have doubts about the characterisation
Truthfully, what makes them interesting to me is where their differences lie -- yes, I think they're equally tough, but not in the same ways. By my count Bodie rescues Doyle 12-13 times versus 5 Doyle rescues. That obviously shapes how I see their characters and their dynamic, which then affects any fic I were to write.
Yet my Bodie would never rescue my Doyle because my Doyle was weak or helpless, it would always have to do with outside circumstances, as it does in the show. And of course my perception that Doyle is less lucky in circumstances offers me lots of room for writing. As do the contrasts between them -- and even the contrasts in their own personalities: I love, for example, that despite how graceful Doyle is, he drops his gun/ bullets something like three times, doesn't he? Rogue, Operation Susie and Oujka. That's intriguing to me, something that could be explored.
You, on the other hand, see the rescues as too equal to count, and that just as surely affects how you draw them and their relationship. And I'm guessing that even in an AU, you would weave that careful equality into any story.
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Truthfully, what makes them interesting to me is where their differences lie -- yes, I think they're equally tough, but not in the same ways.
Yep, exactly my point! I'm absolutely gobsmacked by the idea that you think I'd make them "carefully equal" in any story that I wrote (meaning "no different"?). Yes, I do think they're more or less equal in skills, otherwise (as I said above) they'd not be balanced professionally. Recipe for disaster, I'd say, if one of them always had to wait for the other when they were on the run, or compensate for their partner's poor shooting, or wait for them to figure out what the baddies were going to do next etc. So they have to be balanced - but to me that doesn't equate to equal, let alone "careful equality"...
That obviously shapes how I see their characters and their dynamic, which then affects any fic I were to write.
Yup - and depending on how that dynamic is written (and I suspect you'd do it perfectly well, with understandable motives and contexts, from other things that you've said!) I may or may not go along with a fic that reflected that. See above for comment about useless Doyle and eternally competent Bodie!
And of course my perception that Doyle is less lucky in circumstances offers me lots of room for writing.
Yup, also as I said somewhere above!
That's intriguing to me, something that could be explored.
Hah - it was, even canonically, in Servant of Two Masters, "Doyle's always dropping his!" Less haste, more speed, as my mum would probably have said!